It's interesting psychology wise to me. Many people express superficially, just as you do, how they have a problem with god, religion and the moral implications of that etc. when the truth is what they really have a problem with is nature and the laws (or lack thereof) of the universe. i find it an interesting psychological study of the similarities of atheists and theists whereas atheists scapegoat religion and point fingers at unethical or other inconsistencies/contradictions in religion. but when the veil is lifted and the pretense or the big pink elephant is no longer ignored but faced and acknowledged, the tune changes and backpedaling. oh, don't blame my universe, it's perrrfect. you don't want to face the very dark side of it. if you have no complaint about evolution or the way nature operates which has ZERO to do with god, then your threads after threads seemingly upset with the unethical issues of religion is HYPOCRITICAL TO THE EXTREME. you just admitted essentially have no issues with ethics or the evolutionary system point blank. that means for most atheists or agnostics, issues of ethics are merely semantics or superficial. they also reveal they are more amoral or unethical than is realized on first blush. they may conform to society's rules but it's rather for convenience and self-preservation, no real philosophers or deep questioning of nature itself beyond the physical. what's interesting is, that reveals that religion is where people started to question the ethics of the universe and the start of improving human relations and responsibility beyond itself through awareness of empathy. all the ills and evil in the world has ZERO to do with god or religion. religion is merely a mask and human invention, it is not the real reason but an excuse, there is a difference, you are mistaking a symptom to a real cause. people would do these things WITHOUT religion. NEWS FLASH: the animal kingdom is still torturing and killing eachother every second as we speak, even though they have no concept of religion. it's the damn universal laws, period! unfortunately, it's a damn ugly business and we (especially atheists and scientists) don't like admitting the uglies of their beloved universe or they dress it in a better light (whitewash) or make excuses for it or that it's a good thing etc just like you or bury their nose further and deeper in the minutiae so the uglies are not their domain of concern (see the beautiful botfly eyes and it's fascinating mathematically correct intricacy? while it is burrowing into the flesh of an animal, causing it untold harm/pain/miserable itching creating infection, pus and lesions/eventual scarring. YEAH NATURE IS BEAUTIFUL. JUST LIKE RAPISTS AND MURDERERS. BTW, WHY ARE THEY STILL LOCKING THEM UP? LMFAO. YOU KNOW THAT IS NOT NATURAL, RIGHT? NATURE CREATED THEM TO DO THEIR THING. MOST PEOPLE DESCENDED FROM THE BEST RAPISTS AND MURDERERS NATURE COULD PRODUCE. THIS IS WHY SOCIETY HAS MORE CORRUPT/HIGH OR UNETHICAL/MEDIOCRE OR SCUMMY /LOW POPULATION AS A MAJORITY THAT ARE CONTROLLED BY MAN-MADE LAWS VS INNOCENCE. LET NATURE TAKE IT'S COURSE AND LET THEM OUT AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS. THIS UNIVERSE YOU EXTOL SO MUCH AS PERFECT AND BEAUTIFUL. PUT ONE'S MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS. just as RELIGIONISTS do the same but they use religious terminology defending ALMIGHTY GOD AND IT'S CREATION. No real difference, just different clothing. This reminds me of democrats and republicans feeding off eachother thinking there is no other optional view or stance. i disagree with both views that bullshit about ethics of this and that. i think the universe is a shit system and it is horrendously unethical especially where life is concerned. yes, i think that is sick and just because it is the way it is does not equate to ethically justifiable!