Three Claims of Uniformitarian Naturalism

Hi Alex,

In another thread we discussed the idea that the Romans invented Christianity, and you were very gracious, providing both a video which made the case for it and also a video which kind of debunked the theory.

Thank you for sharing that point of view earlier, because it was new to me then.

I personally found it to be unconvincing. But if you want to go with it, OK with me.

And I have also looked briefly into the rather ancient claims that Christianity was reinvented, or was stolen from previous pagan myths or was directly influenced by astrology.

And I am aware that there are a number of references to astrology in both the Old and New Testaments.

Here are a couple sources for further study on the topic, in case you are interested.

https://www.tvcresources.net/resource-library/articles/jesus-christ-and-pagan-parallels

https://www.amazon.com/Resurrection-Christian-Origins-Question-Vol/dp/0800626796

I do have kind of an odd personal question for you, if you don’t mind?

I have watched you write a number of posts in this Forum in which you are apparently expressing anger towards Christianity, and even directly towards Christians individually.

And I am wondering why?

Are we a threat to you in some way?
Are you angry at a God that does not even exist, in your view. Do you ever take God’s name in vain in anger. You know, the name of this God, that does not exist.

If you do, and I do not know that you do, it is just my question to you, why would you or any other Atheist do such a foolish thing?

I mean who are you guys even taking to, or who are you actually mad at.

And you in particular, seem to believe that the Romans created Christianity, right?

Would it not make more sense to direct any anger you have towards them, the Romans, instead of to a God that doesn’t exist and can’t hear you, or to the billions of poor Christians who have been deceived by the Romans?

Just wondering how this makes rational scientific sense in your worldview?

 

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Well let me tell you my experience that started it all.

My first daughter a wonderful person with many admirable talents and so much to look forward to in life was conned by a Christian group such that she lost all ability to function independently of that group.

What really soured me was on one occasion she was with me but was held up from going to a prayer meeting, mid week, because her brother had borrowed her car and was help up on an appointment ( real estate ) like money making put food on the table stuff ... as the time for her to leave drew closer she became more and more agitated as if not getting to this meeting was a life or death matter, she called someone to explain that she may not make it and I could hear the conversation where clearly she was being put under pressure to get there "No I can't take the train and leave my car here" was one thing that I heard. Stuff me drunk what's the critical necessity not to miss one damn meeting..bloody control is what...She was worse than a drug addict trying to score. I tried to talk to her saying that missing one meeting was not the end of the world..but it was for her you see such was the control this group had over her... to see my daughter brain washed like that broke my heart.
Prior to falling into that cult she was a decent kid and well adjusted..they buggered her life.

That is my main reason however in business I had various occassions where good Christians gave me their word only to break it and jiggle to a position not consistent with their promise and worse still somehow not even understanding what they had done.
No personal responsibility and knowing god will forgive them is what goes on I guess..but it's bad not to be responsible.

I had one Christian that during the listing appointment constantly referred to "the lord" and said that he just wanted to think things over but he would list his home with me while shaking my hand to give weight to his promise..well he seemed to forget that promise rather fast as the next morning there was another agents sign in his front yard. He could have just said he wanted to think about it so why lie and make a promise and not keep it.

The thing I do not like is none of them ever read their bible..so they believe without ever referencing the authority they present to others...none realise the that the gospels were not written by Mathew Mark etc they just believe and don't know what they are accepting. How many Christians know that JC supposedly promised to return in the life time of those he was preaching to and if you point that out you see their eyes glaze over and simply go into don't want to hear that mode...well then you have the persecution of Jews..there are many bone headed Christians who don't like Jews because they killed JC and I am sure most of them don't even realise JC was a Jew.. as a generalisation they present as uninformed and ignorant of pretty well everything in their good book.

Also this indoctrination of children such that most of them become brain dead does not endear me to the cult, I could go on because the problems with christianity are near inexhaustible.

I think so given you brain wash children which is child abuse pure and simple that you destroy people's self esteem by telling them they are sinners and there are also those who gleefully promise that God will punish you for eternity for not being one of them.

I don't give a tinkers cuss about a non existent god and that is not where my disgust, rather than hate, is focused..as you say there is no god to be angry at..it's the stupidity and gullibility for one and the cult behaviour where christians are not satisfied screwing up their lives but others as well...and this crap we are all sinners is just a nasty way of eroding someone's self esteem so they can substitute their control.

One could write a book and many very intelligent men have setting out the evil cult of christianity terrible deeds and practices.

Yet suckers when caught can not escape or use reason or logic relying on their famous throw away line abdicating all responsibility to themselves and their family "it's my faith"..cop out pure and simple.

One only has to study the history to see it is a con, one only has to study the bible ( new testament) to realise it is a con. Set out the plot in a simple fashion and it is clear that we deal with nonsense...and the facts are..facts mind you...JC was just one of many similar human gods all built on astrology making it clear that JC was just another Elvis impersonator in effect... and even if he was real which is certainly not established a human is not a god..it's a con and it makes me upset that I live in a world where most humans are still primatevly superstitious..And that as we look at earlier people's and their superstitions and crazy ideas that in the future some historian will look back to this time, my time and rate us as fundamentally superstitious and sub par intellectually.
Also my grand mother after losing her baby the damn priest laid a guilt trip on her that is must have been because of her sin and sent her crazy...there are so many they just keep poping up...
And here..look at how each and every theist can not help lieing..it comes so easy for them.
The worst is not one Christian sees they are evil.
I think they are all under the control of the devil given they refuse to look for the truth or even read their good book such that they have half a clue what is in it.
You did ask.

Alex

 

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Oh one salegood Christian folk, agree to sell, met the purchasers they had afternoon tea together all friendly, the purchasers spend money for a pest inspection report and other stuff..then a person who had seen the property earlier makes an offer $1000 higher..guess what all promises go out the window ..I said to them would you like to be in the purchasers position, getting excited spending money..their answer..the contract isn't exchanged so we can take the higher offer...that sucks..no respect of love others for them..dogs.
Alex

 

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That was a Great response!!!
I mean, really Great!!!

And I am so Sorry!

If I may, how is your daughter doing now?

 

I'll drink to that! *hic*

 

West Point..if not a Christian you don't get in...
Alex

I will bet you another carton I can drink another carton...mmm let's get a keg saves going out for more beer and we can be responsible drivers.
Alex

 

After many years...well she is now married to a nice Christian chap and they have two kids.

He is not a rat bag and a decent man.

You know I feel so much better getting that off my chest but I think it is sad that the world is full of superstition...I just want the world to be perfect...no suffering, no lieing etc
Alex

 

Sounds Great to me Alex!

I also wish that the world was perfect, without suffering, lying, selfishness, greed, malice, death, etc.

And I would bet that your daughter does also.

 

Regarding the following, and still unproven,
Claims of Science...

Claim 1
Nature is all that exists.

Claim 2
Everything can, and indeed must, be explained by time plus chance plus the laws of nature working on matter.

I offer the following video, entitled “Is There Life After Death?”, moderated by John Cleese for your consideration and review, if you so wish.

 

Does science make such a claim given that science really only manifests via the scientific method and as far as I know no one is presenting a hypothesis making such a claim...it seems as it is you making a claim that a claim has been made so perhaps you should point to which scientist is making the claim you alledge so we can determine if he is presenting an initial hypothesis or if indeed he presents a theory in which case we may be able to review his paper and also the peer review...are you sure that the claim you suggest exists?
Alex

 

I started watching the video but lost interest early to be honest..perhaps and maybe..then we have a testimony from a guy dieing from a drug overdose, then an account from a guy having a heart attack presumably under anesthetic...how did Eddie know? Maybe he didn't...
In any event it boils down to this... those who want to believe will believe will believe and if you want to believe go ahead it can be your belief if that is what you want...personally I don't believe any of if cause it is based on we don't understand so let's make something up...if there is an afterlife it will happen if not it won't but I see no benefit in speculating ..is there any benefit? But all of this seems to be step one ..we can't explain it, step two there is something going on, step three let's make something up...
What is the point really what is the point...oh another thing prove it will not prove god I expect..further the video is after all entertainment nothing more so perhaps that is the level to deal with it...
Alex

 

The Bold faced lie. Why don't theists understand the word "Honesty"?

 

Since you've proven to be a liar, don't you think you're part of the problem?

 

Bingo!! Perhaps we have a bible thumping, religiously fanatical version of the three stooges? Larry [Seti] Curly [Jan] Moe [Vociferous]

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22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Galatians 5:22-23

I personally find it strange and even incomprehensible that a person could fight against and seek to destroy such things.

 

Stop being a liar Seti! all those qualities, other then faith, are not necessarily a result or exclusive to faith or religious belief. In fact if the truth be known, and with one of your cohorts being a Trump lover, there are far more non believers that are making an effort for a better world then the opportunistic Trump and his bible thumping supporters.

 

Perhaps what you do not understand is that neither theists nor their selected, available invented gods have a monopoly on love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control...Not really cricket old chap suggesting that presumably atheists have a problem with virtue...do you think that if one does not believe in God that they can only be immoral?


And who is out to destroy virtue and morality?

...no theist I talk to is interested in the truth..why is that?
....it's available yet you ignore it.
Isn't seeking the truth a virtue to pursue?

Why this delusional obsession with these invented gods? And why believe that morals can only come from scripture?
That is incredibly narrow minded.

Morality is something each person works out for themselves..in the case of godism it must be very difficult going thru the good book looking for morals to follow..kill the working neighbour? No..skip that one...Don't eat shell fish...mmm no...see where I am going with this...

And oddly atheists make choices with morals also..the idea of do unto others could be worked out without the good book.

However those Romans certainly put some good stuff in the gospels to create better citizens of the empire...render unto Caesar that which is Caesar...just one example.
Alex

 

I noticed your verse says nothing about honesty and integrity, so it's little wonder you've destroyed those things, which would follow you would then be destroying self-control, peace and goodness as a result of lacking honesty and integrity.

 

Maybe they miss some directions upon honesty.

Proverbs 12.22
Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord, but those who act faithfully are his delight.

And
Psalm101.7
No one who practices deceit shall dwell in my house; no one who utters lies shall continue before my eyes.


I picked these up from Openbibleinfo and recommend it..you type in the thing of interest..say slavery..and the list comes up of the references in the bible to slavery...it is most entertaining ...but with it I expect you could punctuate any proposition with a suitable quote.

1 Timothy 2:11-12
Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

...could you fit that on a t shirt...

And all these things we are to believe are the words of God.. I mean get real sit and read this stuff and it becomes clear it is just various men bumping their gums trying to sound wise..your typical...listen to me I am a guru type..reading it when listed is like reading those "date pads" ..your little paper desk calender that would have some cute quote or saying there to get you to say hmmmm.

Leviticus 20:9
For anyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother; his blood is upon him

And does this hint at there being some truth to the claim that the Romans invented JC I suppose one would need to ask god what he had in mind when he "inspired" these words.

Romans 13:1-5
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.

I guess one would need to go to a bible study class to figure this one out.
John 13:27
Then after he had taken the morsel, Satan entered into him. Jesus said to him, “What you are going to do, do quickly.”

Best of all the main message hidden in there for folk who would ever bother to read the bible cover to cover with an alert and questioning mind...

John 8:32
And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

And no doubt the truth is that christianity was astrology inspired no different from many other human god cults of the time taken over and propagated by the Romans to suit their political needs.

Alex

 

Romans 13:6-7
For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.
Matthew 22:17-21
Tell us, then, what you think. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?” But Jesus, aware of their malice, said, “Why put me to the test, you hypocrites? Show me the coin for the tax.” And they brought him a denarius. And Jesus said to them, “Whose likeness and inscription is this?” They said, “Caesar's.” Then he said to them, “Therefore render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.”
1 Peter 2:13-16
Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God.
Alex