Thousands of Religious Sects - Which one is right?

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by nds1, Jan 17, 2007.

  1. lightgigantic Banned Banned

    actually you are misinformed - there is a distinction between th ematerial heavenly planets (svarga) which are the abodes that offer higher grades of material opulence and vaikuntha, the transcendental abode associated with the montheistic concept of god, that bestows actual liberation, eternity etc

    svarga is the abode of the pious and vaikuntha is the abode of the transcendental
    maybe he could offer a biblical quote to back up his opinion - that is the general standard for theistic discussion
    once again, if he could quote something from the vedas that states this it would certainly help his argument. Especially since I can quote passages from the vedas that state otherwise - here's one eg

    Iso 12: Those who are engaged in the worship of demigods enter into the darkest region of ignorance, and still more so do the worshipers of the impersonal Absolute.

    Iso 13: It is said that one result is obtained by worshiping the supreme cause of all causes and that another result is obtained by worshiping what is not supreme. All this is heard from the undisturbed authorities, who clearly explained it.


    BG 9.25: Those who worship the demigods will take birth among the demigods; those who worship the ancestors go to the ancestors; those who worship ghosts and spirits will take birth among such beings; and those who worship Me will live with Me.

    the vedas also teach that without a spiritual preceptor, one cannot make any spiritual advancement

    "Unto those great souls who have implicit faith in both the Lord and the spiritual master, all the imports of Vedic knowledge are automatically revealed." (Svetesvara Upanisad 6.23)

    as I have mentioned many times previously, the "I am the only way" quote commonly attributed to jesus ("John 14:6 Jesus said, "I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.") when examined in the original text from which the english is derived, is spoken in the present text - so in other words it should read "Right here, right now, I am the only way" - given the social climate that jesus was preaching in, it doesn't appear to be a tall claim

    once again, a quote would help his cause, particularly when I can bring up eg's such as

    BG 9.26: If one offers Me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit or water, I will accept it.
    so the next question is, why continue to be sinful?

    erm - a quote would be helpful, especially when there are one's like

    BG 18.65: Always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend.

    BG 18.66: Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear.

    and as previously mentioned

    Iso 12: Those who are engaged in the worship of demigods enter into the darkest region of ignorance, and still more so do the worshipers of the impersonal Absolute.

    Iso 13: It is said that one result is obtained by worshiping the supreme cause of all causes and that another result is obtained by worshiping what is not supreme. All this is heard from the undisturbed authorities, who clearly explained it.

    once again a quote would help him in light of

    BG 7.4: Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego — all together these eight constitute My separated material energies.

    BG 7.5: Besides these, O mighty-armed Arjuna, there is another, superior energy of Mine, which comprises the living entities who are exploiting the resources of this material, inferior nature.

    BG 7.6: All created beings have their source in these two natures. Of all that is material and all that is spiritual in this world, know for certain that I am both the origin and the dissolution.

    not reading anything outside of one's own field of theistic expertise is only a problem when one tries to establish one's own field as superior

    BG 5.15: Nor does the Supreme Lord assume anyone's sinful or pious activities. Embodied beings, however, are bewildered because of the ignorance which covers their real knowledge.

    BG 5.16: When, however, one is enlightened with the knowledge by which nescience is destroyed, then his knowledge reveals everything, as the sun lights up everything in the daytime.

    given that there is a complete lack on a description of what god looks like in the bible, its not clear what his basis is

    anyway I could quote on, but it should be obvious by now how proficient Mr. Kreeft is in his analysis of vedic literature

    once again a quote would help

    BG 2.12: Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.
    is he joking?

    actually he is only referencing the scriptural commentaries of sankacharya - during the british rule there was a big push in europe to absorb the indian culture into the historical continuum of europe, so they (personalities like max meuller) took the scriptural commentaries of sankacharya to further their aims
    vaisnava's use the same argument in their refutation of the scriptural commentaries of sankacharya - the only difference is that they can quote the vedas to make the argument more cohesive

    given that the vedas advocate that the material world is the abode of separation from god via sin, it seems we are talking about the same ball game

    SB 11.20.36: Material piety and sin, which arise from the good and evil of this world, cannot exist within My unalloyed devotees, who, being free from material hankering, maintain steady spiritual consciousness in all circumstances. Indeed, such devotees have achieved Me, the Supreme Lord, who am beyond anything that can be conceived by material intelligence.

    one difference i would concede is that time is linear in christianity and it is cyclic in the vedas - once again, this is not necessarily a contradiction since if you took a segment of cyclic time for examination it would appear linear

    no quotes = no argument

    BG 18.62: O scion of Bharata, surrender unto Him utterly. By His grace you will attain transcendental peace and the supreme and eternal abode.
    its not how consciousness is disparate from order/function/law
    either that or his version of Christianity is bereft of a priestly class - it certainly would explain why he doesn't quote scripture in forming his arguments

    actually the root for yoga (yukta) is the same as the root for religion (religare) : connection (the next q being, "connection to what?" ..... -hint- ....god)

    sankacharya stewed on the flame of eurocentric idealism at work
    pleasure, power, altruism and enlightenment do not play a part in the practical application of christianity? Seems like every atheist with a chip on their shoulder is out to bag them for the first two, give them a concession for the third and highly doubt them for the fourth
    that still doesn't make everything true
    actually there is a distinction between the atma of god and the atma of the living entity - see this post

    vaisnavas agree, further more they can quote the vedas to establish it
    atma is spirit and brahman is the energetic effulgence of god
    this writer has problems with the vedas because he is not familiar with them

    just because one is godly, it doesn't mean they are god
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  3. nds1 Registered Senior Member

    Ok, obviously the two people who's articles I used were not that smart. But did you look at my comparision between Muslim and Christianity? It is in post #138.
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2007
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  5. nds1 Registered Senior Member

    Here is post#138:

    Why do people keep denying that A cannot be B?

    Our solar system either has one sun or two. The earth is either round or flat.

    God is either a Trinity (pluristic) or a singular entity. Jesus either was or was not the Son of God.

    The Bible says God is a Trinity.

    The Quran says:

    "People of the Book (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, and attribute to God nothing except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only a Messenger of God, and His command that He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and in His Messengers, and do not say: ‘God is a Trinity.' Give up this assertion; it would be better for you. God is indeed just One God. Far be it from His glory that He should have a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth. God is sufficient for a guardian" (Quran 4:171).

    The Bible says Jesus is God's only son:

    "For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him (Bible: John 3:16).

    The Quran says otherwise:

    "Say: "God is Unique! God, the Source [of everything]. He has not fathered anyone nor was He fathered, and there is nothing comparable to Him!" (Quran 112:1-4).

    "Such was Jesus, the son of Mary; it is a statement of truth, about which they vainly dispute. It is not befitting to the majesty of God, that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, ‘Be' and it is" (Quran 19:34-35).

    Hinduism claims that Jesus was just another avatar. Islam says that Jesus was just another messenger.

    The Bible paints a picture of Jesus completely opposite to the beliefs of Hinduism and Islam (and all other religions):

    Col 1:16-20
    16 For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven

    Heb 1:1-4
    1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

    Matt 28:16-20
    16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. 17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

    LG and VitalOne. You are seriously in error if you state that every religion has the exact same beliefs on who Jesus was.

    If I told you both that the earth was round, you would say:

    No, it is round and flat at the same time. LOL, good one.

    If you can't see any contradictions between beliefs of religions which I have presented above, then, well, you cannot grasp the concept of the Law of Idenity and the Law of Contradcition.

    Any responses LG?
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2007
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  7. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

    No it doesn't. This is a common view developing, though.

    Also, Jesus is not special. He's a God-man. Been there, done that. Since time immemorial.

    Gilgamesh was a God man.
  8. nds1 Registered Senior Member


    It doesn't claim that Jesus is an Avatar, or that Jesus is "just another avatar"?
  9. Ayodhya Registered Senior Member

    lightgigantic -

    Once again, you never stop do you?
  10. nds1 Registered Senior Member

    The Lightgigantic Ultimate Method of Finding a Religion:

    On starting the process:

    1. start with scripture and venture on to an analysis of the words and actions of a saintly person - that's the first step

    Problem: What scripture do you start with? How many scriptures of saintly people do you read? (Clearly LG, you have a very limited scope in this regard)

    On comprehending and applying scripture:

    1. the ability to apply scripture comes about through associating with someone already fixed in knowledge

    Problem: Which person already fixed in knowledge should I associate with? There are millions of them, all with contradicting beliefs.

    2. logic applied to scripture - usually religion has some founder that establishes or reforms existing modes of religion - they are often associated with scripture, which aims at capturing their teachings. thus the focus is the words of a teacher

    Problem: What teacher's words should I focus on? Mohammad who says Jesus was just a another messenger of God, Christianity which says Jesus was the only Son of God and second to God in power, or some other religous teacher with another contradicting belief?

    3. ideally one should follow a religion that one understands with their intelligence and logic, but it is common for people to follow for reasons as you outline

    Problem: What if I understand the theological fundamentals of every religion?

    4. I mentioned earlier that the comprehension of such things is not so much dependent on reading but on coming in contact with a person established in knowledge by dint of practice

    Problem: Again, what are you suggesting, that I interview a practioner from every religion?

    On analyzing practioners:

    1. careful examination - Just as there are tests one can do to determine the quality of water there are tests one can do to determine the credibility of a theistic practitioner - however part of that testing process involves the seer coming to a degree of purity themselves

    Problem: So again, are you suggesting that I should interview a practioner from every religion (which clearly you have not even come close to doing), carefully examine their teachings, and choose the one I logically think is the best or most truthful?


    Could you please come up with a sequential process as to figure out what scriptures or religion to follow which is more detailed and organized than the one above? If you could use a bulleted number list, that would be great.

    Please be specific. No more vague responses which could mean anything.
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2007
  11. visceral_instinct Monkey see, monkey denigrate Valued Senior Member

    None are right, religion is a cancer.
  12. lightgigantic Banned Banned

    and you are the better man because you never start?
  13. lightgigantic Banned Banned

    in the absence of providing reasons for your arguments you provide convenient sound bites that, after a little bit of altering, can be copy/pasted to present the opposite argument
    eg -
  14. visceral_instinct Monkey see, monkey denigrate Valued Senior Member


    I think religion is a cancer because it causes unnecessary suffering and problems in a world where there are enough already. I think it messes up people's minds. I mean if someone was brought up having never heard of religion, and they went out and met people who believed that there is an invisible person in the sky who tells people what to do and how to live their lives...I imagine they would laugh at them.That it is a normality is quite frankly very disturbing.

    And I don't see how anyone could say that atheism is a cancer. An atheist is just someone who doesn't happen to believe in some invisible all-powerful mind-rapist.
  15. VitalOne Banned Banned

    Well I'm really saying they're all saying the same things in different ways...your thinking is more western oriented ("East is east, west is west, and they shall never meet" [or something like that])...mine is more Eastern oriented ("In the sky, there is no distinction of east and west; people create distinctions out of their own minds and then beleive them to be true")

    Jesus actually seems to agree with the Qu'ranic version:
    "And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the {age} to come" (Mat 12:32)

    Clearly the Holy Spirit (Allah in the Qu'ran) is higher than Jesus in some way.

    Again, there's no real contradiction, Jesus seems to agree that the Holy Spirit is higher than himself.,,

    Again, there would really be no contradiction since in Hinduism avataras are considered to be equal to God himself, yet God is still the original one, the source all, beyond the senses, etc...

    No real contradiction here in Hinduism at all, since if Jesus was an avatara he really would be all those things, as would Ram also

    As for Islam, there's still really no contradiction, Allah is doer of all, Jesus is the great prophet, but Allah or the Holy Spirit is still above Jesus, the Qu'ran never denies the divinity of Jesus, it just says that Allah is above him...

    I never stated every religion has the exact same beliefs as who Jesus was. I stated that although they appear different, they are really all teaching the samethings, non-different from each other, only appearing different due to a lack of knowledge, as I illustrated in the 168 example.
  16. VitalOne Banned Banned

    I never said they all have the same beliefs, they all appear differently, but in reality they're really trying to accomplish the samethings. It would be like me saying 7*2*6*2 is correct but 42*4 is not correct....

    Choose which ever you feel the most comfortable with...which ever you feel will help you achieve the truth...for instance an intellectual may choose to fixate their mind on the absolute truth (which is equal to God)...a devotional person may choose to perpetually worship God....a person more action-oriented may choose to always do good deeds....someone more attracted to meditation or mind-sciences may choose to control their mind and destroy insecurities within them.....all will lead to salvation...freedom from suffering
  17. VitalOne Banned Banned

    LMAO@ this typical atheist...hey wasn't Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pot, and others atheists...and hey didn't they cause many problems and suffering in the world? Where does the Bible/Qu'ran/Bhagavad Gita or any religion say that God is situated in the sky?

    Anyone can easily say atheism is a horrible cancer, I mean look at all the people Stalin not only killed, but ruthlessly killed, simply because he didn't care. Hitler constantly ridiculed Jesus on his radio recordings. If you desire to kill millions of people and you can get away with it, then why not? To the atheists, there is no heaven or hell, no karma, no bad consequences as long as you get away with who cares?
  18. Oniw17 ascetic, sage, diogenes, bum? Valued Senior Member

    What did Lenin do that was so bad?
  19. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member


    No Hindu scripture talks about Jesus. It is the opinion of most Hindus who are aware of Jesus that he was a saintly guru and possibly an avatar of Vishnu. Just as they would claim any other religious leader of worth was.
  20. Kron Maxwell's demon Registered Senior Member

    Hitler and Stalin weren't atheists. They were God-fearing Christians.

    ...and WHY do you have to resort to reductio ad Hitlerum???
  21. Oniw17 ascetic, sage, diogenes, bum? Valued Senior Member

    Stalin was a christian?
  22. nds1 Registered Senior Member

    LOL. Your joking, right?

    No, they are all saying that the other one is wrong.

    I guarantee you most if not all Christians believe that Vishnu, Rama, and Krishna, are all made up bullshit.

    And guess what, when we die, we will know the truth. Either Jesus is second to God and is the King of everything HIMSELF, or Jesus is 4th or 5th in the hierarchy as LG pointed out.

    Either Christians, or Hindus wil be right or wrong. They both can't be right.

    VitalOne, why can't you accept the fact that all religions believe different things?

    Do Hindus believe in the book of Reveleations where JESUS HIMSELF rules over all and there is no more earth as we know it?

    When we die, we will either become an animal and become reborn in physical form again as Hindus believe, or we will be judged and go to heaven or hell.

    Christians and Muslims probably both believe that Hindus are going to hell for their extremely different beliefs.

    There is one truth VitalOne, whether you want to keep denying it or not. One of the existing religions may be correct in what they believe about the nature of God, the afterlife, and how to live life. Maybe none is correct. But all of them sure as hell are not correct as that would be impossible.
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2007
  23. nds1 Registered Senior Member


    Yes, exactly.

    And I guarantee you Jesus never even came close to mentioning anything about the Hindu avatars, or the Hindu system. Jesus clearly did not believe in Hinduism and never said anything even remotely related to Hinduism.

    VitalOne and LG are on a wild goose chase in trying to prove that all religions have the same beliefs about the truth of reality (nature of God, afterlife, God's word, creation, etc.).

    It truly baffles me.

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