Thoughts and prayers

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Vociferous, Feb 27, 2018.

  1. Vociferous Registered Senior Member

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  3. Bowser Life is Fatal. Valued Senior Member

    I think it's recognition of the tragedy and an attempt to somehow affect the best outcome when in actuality we have no control. Some stuff is simply beyond our control, but there's no harm in desiring the best.
    Vociferous likes this.
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  5. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

    It's literally the least one can possibly do.
    sideshowbob likes this.
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  7. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    The implied claim that whatever happened was beyond control, from the very people whose responsibility and role it was to control it, can be a bit off-putting. In such cases it's better if it's preceded by an apology, some kind of acknowledgment of having let people down.

    The fiftieth time it is made in such cases, with no apology, it starts to offend, sure.
  8. Bowser Life is Fatal. Valued Senior Member

    Assuming other people can control every misfortune of life I suppose we could blame it on the devil, but he's not real, so we cast it on others.
    Vociferous likes this.
  9. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Because, at the level of Congress, it is offered as a replacement for any action that would prevent such tragedies.

    Imagine, for example, if you were drowning, and a man nearby with a life preserver saw you drowning. Rather than throw you the life preserver, he told you "you will be in my thoughts and prayers. Nothing anyone can do for you; these things happen. It's too soon to start talking about solutions. Let's let you deal with your impending death, and get over the tragedy before we do anything rash." You might be annoyed with that guy (if you survived of course.)
  10. Vociferous Registered Senior Member

    I assume you didn't read the included link. The idea that Chris Pratt could be responsible for Kevin Smith's heart attack is beyond ridiculous.
    Oh, like the Broward county sheriff did? Oops. That didn't happen.
    The question was a general one, specifically citing Chris Pratt praying for Kevin Smith. Any thoughts on that?

    What proposed laws would have stopped this shooting? You know, aside from the sheriff's office actually doing its job under the current laws.
  11. Vociferous Registered Senior Member

    Do you have similar objections to all well-wishers or just prayers?
  12. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

    Yes. It's polite but essentially worthless.
  13. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Personally I have no problem with anyone praying for anyone. In Congress, that has become the alternative to action. With Chris Pratt and Kevin Smith - no idea why he's mad, unless that phrase "thoughts and prayers" has become so synonymous with "fuck you" that people make that assumption when they see it.
    The assault weapon ban that expired in 2004 banned large magazines of the size the shooter was likely using.
    A law that requires a mental health evaluation before a gun purchase.
    California style laws that prohibit large magazines and quick-reload features.
  14. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    I'll try to hand it to you slowly:
    There are tragedies beyond anyone's control. Thoughts and prayers are all one can offer. They do not offend, unless sarcastic or insincere - and that raises a semantic problem.

    There are tragedies which could possibly have been prevented, by unusual foresight or whatever. Thoughts and prayers acknowledging regret do not offend.

    There are tragedies which should have been prevented by people who neglected to take ordinary and reasonable preventive measures. The expression of regret here needs to be stronger, and with some kind of active correction of behavior on top of apology, to provide a context for thoughts and prayers offered in public. This situation cannot be repeated very many times, before the apology wears thin and the prayers offend.

    And last but not least there are tragedies whose prevention was actively rejected by people, whose prevention was fought, whose occurrence was predicted and nature known in advance, for which innocuous means of prevention had been readied to be deployed only to be spiked and blocked by people who accepted the tragedy as a consequence of their actions.
    And here, thoughts and prayers are a tricky thing for those people to announce in public. If one of those people were to get punched in the face for offering thoughts and prayers to the wrong person in that situation, we would regard that as justified, no?

    Now we've seen a lot of that last; so much of that bad aji has permeated the public realm that actually offering sincere thoughts and prayers has become difficult, the term loaded with implications. And that's the modern context - everything the modern Republican Party touches turns to shit, basically, even thoughts and prayers.
    James R likes this.
  15. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

    Basically, when it's a substitute for action, don't even bother. People are sick of empty gestures from congress.
  16. Vociferous Registered Senior Member

    So unless you can do something about the tragedy, you should just act callously aloof?
    The OP wasn't about Congress. It's not inaction. It's just not your preferred action.
    No, it hasn't become the alternative to action. It's just an expression of sympathy and not your preferred action.
    Kevin Smith is actually defending Pratt from all the hate he received on social media for the simple well-wishing.
    An assault weapons ban just changes the weapon used, and there are other rifles with equal or greater capability and capacity.
    The law already keeps the mentally ill from buying guns. Again, your "doing nothing" is just not "doing what you want." Haven't you been arguing against what they actually want to do, like arming teachers? Is that doing nothing, or just not doing what you want? Be honest.
    California laws are circumvented by innovation before the ink is dry.
    Did I miss the Broward county sheriff's appology?
    No laws suggested so far would have stopped any of these, because none of these people had criminal records or diagnosed mental illness.
    The Broward sheriff's office had specific warnings of the attack's nature and did nothing.
    No, battery is a crime.
  17. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Not really. Anything with that capability and capacity would fall under a sound ban.
    No, it doesn't. It needs tightening up.
    All use of bump stocks, assault rifles, etc, would have been prevented by several of the laws suggested so far. So would unusual ammunition purchasing, under 21 purchase of certain weapons, purchase of arsenals of weapons by people flagged as disturbed or on certain medications (such as the sudden purchase of an arsenal by a guy being investigated for child porn), and so forth.
    The contra: When you can do something about it, sending thoughts and prayers instead is acting callously aloof.
  18. Musika Registered Member

    The article pretty much hit it on the head ...

    Another reason why some fans are particularly edgy with the phrase "thoughts and prayers" right now is due to how often it is the go-to response of politicians in the wake of tragedies that could have potentially been averted.

    Sincere platitudes tend to annoy people.
  19. Vociferous Registered Senior Member

    Really? Most hunting rifles?
    Yes it does, but the Constitution has this pesky thing called due process.
    That's the thing. The Parkland guy was never flagged as disturbed, apparently due to incompetent police. At least not to the point of a due process adjudication.
    Again, assault rifle capabilities would include a general rifle ban. And with age restrictions would only leave shotguns, which are far more deadly. What is an "unusual ammunition purchase?"
    Criminals will always find alternative weapons, like the Chinese mass stabbing that killed 29 and injured another 130.
    I'm not familiar with that one.
    Just because it's not your preferred action, like arming teachers, doesn't mean it's no action at all.
  20. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    The necessary has already cleared the Constitution.
    The laws suggested help with that.
    Nonsense. Ordinary rifles are not capable of such rapid fire.
    No, they aren't. Slower, less penetration, much shorter range, less convenient ammunition and weapon design, etc.
    But mass murderers will not often find gangs of helpers like that. And if they do, they at least won't all have guns.
    So they won't kill as many. That's the reason these weapons were invented in the first place - they work better for killing people than the alternatives.
    Thoughts and prayers are not action.
  21. Vociferous Registered Senior Member

    Parser failed.
    No, they don't.
    Yes, they are. Semi-automatic is semi-automatic.
    Slug ammunition, semi-automatic, targets in an enclosed area, etc..
    AR-15 round is less penetrative than a 9mm, because it was designed to be.

    One guy:
    19 people were killed and 26 others were injured, 13 severely, at a care home for disabled people.
    Could have easily been deadly:
    Armed guard and teachers are action. You just don't like it.
  22. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Now you are telling me what I was talking about? Goofier by the minute - - -
    Not my problem. Hire a schoolkid to read for you.
    Sure they do. Ands there are more coming - it's not hard.
    Your contention was that shotguns are more deadly than assault rifles for school shootings, remember?
    Silly boy.
    You'll have to tell all those guys who wasted all that money on bump stocks and specialty designs like the ARs.
    What's going to be banned, unless you fine wordsmiths step up and input otherwise, is RPMs, on the same grounds as RPGs. And it won't ripple the 2nd Amendment at all, because ordinary rifles will still be ok.
    Thoughts and prayers were the topic - try to focus.
  23. RainbowSingularity Registered Senior Member

    Exploiting the media hype to gain free personal advertising while making big speaches about how terrible it is while having the ability to make real changes does tend to leave me asking how geniune and consequently so; "how truely corrupt" an administratin must be to not be able to respond in the best interests of the democratic majority.

    maybe its time every single 18 year old in the USA went out tomorrow and bought an AR-15 & 500 rounds of armour piercing rounds(if they are legal) law abiding in a law abiding manner.
    then carried them all loaded to church every sunday.
    would it prevent children and other innocent people from being killed by guns ?

    if every 18 year old carried an AR-15 in the usa would less innocent people die from guns ?

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