Thoughts about capitalism

[color=#88000]"The economic anarchy of capitalist society as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of the evil.... Private capital tends to be concentrated in few hands... [resulting in] an oligarchy of private capital, the enormous power of which cannot be effectively checked even by a democratically organized political society. This is true since the members of legislative bodies are selected by political parties, largely financed or otherwise influenced by private capitalists....

The consequence is that the representatives of the people do not in fact sufficiently protect the interest of the underprivileged sections of the population. Moreover... private capitalists inevitably control, directly or indirectly, the main sources of information (press, radio, education). It is thus extremely difficult and indeed in most cases quite impossible for the individual citizen to come to objective conclusions and to make intelligent use of his political rights.

The crippling of individuals I consider the worst evil of capitalism. Our whole educational system suffers from this evil. An exaggerated competitive attitude is inculcated into the student, who is trained to worship acquisitive success as preparation for his future career."--Albert Einstein

"I am opposing a social order in which it is possible for one man who
does absolutely nothing that is useful to amass a fortune of hundreds of
millions of dollars, while millions of men and women who work all the
days of their lives secure barely enough for a wretched
existence."--Eugene Victor Debs


"Capitalism is not about free competitive choices among people who
are reasonably equal in their buying and selling of economic power, it
is about concentrating capital, concentrating economic power in very few
hands using that power to trash everyone who gets in their way." --DAVID
KORTEN


"Advocates of capitalism are very apt to appeal to the sacred principles
of liberty, which are embodied in one maxim: The fortunate must not be
restrained in the exercise of tyranny over the unfortunate." --BERTRAND
RUSSELL


"Under capitalism, man exploits man."
--JOHN KENNETH GALBRAITH


"Capitalism is the legitimate racket of the ruling class." --AL CAPONE

"Capitalism has destroyed our belief in any effective power but that of
self interest backed by force."
--GEORGE BERNARD SHAW

"The things you own end up owning you."--unknown

"I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils
[capitalism], namely through the establishment of a socialist economy,
accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward
social goals. In such an economy, the means of production are owned by
society itself and are utilized in a planned fashion. A planned economy,
which adjusts production to the needs of the community, would distribute
the work to be done among all those able to work and would guarantee a
livelihood to every man, woman, and child. The education of the
individual, in addition to promoting his own innate abilities, would
attempt to develop in him a sense of responsibility for his fellow men
in place of the glorification of power and success in our present
society."--Albert Einstein

"Personally I’m in favor of democracy, which means that the central institutions in the society have to be under popular control. Now, under capitalism we can’t have democracy by definition. Capitalism is a system in which the central institutions of society are in principle under autocratic control. Thus, a corporation or an industry is, if we were to think of it in political terms, fascist; that is, it has tight control at the top and strict obedience has to be established at every level — there’s a little bargaining, a little give and take, but the line of authority is perfectly straightforward. Just as I’m opposed to political fascism, I’m opposed to economic fascism. I think that until major institutions of society are under the popular control of participants and communities, it’s pointless to talk about democracy. In this sense, I would describe myself as a libertarian socialist — I’d love to see centralized power eliminated, whether it’s the state or the economy, and have it diffused and ultimately under direct control of the participants. Moreover, I think that’s entirely realistic. Every bit of evidence that exists (there isn’t much) seems to show, for example, that workers’ control increases efficiency. Nevertheless, capitalists don’t want it, naturally; what they’re worried about is control, not the loss of productivity or efficiency."---Noam Chomsky

“I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. . . . corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed.” --Abraham Lincoln

"The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations.” ― Thomas Jefferson [/color]

 

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It's a shitty system. That's what I think.

I read a lot of Noam Chomsky, so if you know his ideas then you pretty much know mine.

 

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So....a lot of historical quotes about capitalism. Is there a point that you wish to make?

 

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It is indeed a shitty system. It's just the least bad of any we have tried.

 

True. Just as our (the U.S.) version of democracy isn't perfect but it's still lightyears ahead of other systems like communism.

I see a lot of rather ignorant people on this site complaining about capitalism. The tend to come and go but the vast majority of them leave in the same state of ignorance in which they arrived. For one thing, they don't have a clue as to who the capitalists really are. They are pension funds, you, me, the little old lady across the street and anyone else who owns stock in one or more companies.

Actually, there's only ONE fatal flaw in capitalism - and it's the same exact flaw that exists in our form of government. Stockholders, like citizens, get to vote on issues and management direction of the corporations - just as we do our elected officials. But the voice of the stockholders can - and usually is - completely ignored by the board of directors if it doesn't suit their agenda. The same applies to our elected officials; we select them on the basis of what they say, but then we're stuck with what they actually do - which often involves back room deals and back-scratching with their fellow politicians. And as with directors on the boards, we're stuck with them until the next election cycle finally rolls around - when once again we are stuck with selecting a pig in a poke.

If that single flaw could be somehow corrected - make the companies answerable to their actual owners and elected officials *immediately* answerable for their actions - this would be a far better country and world.

 

I don't think even that's true. Most people, if pressed, could not elucidate a single position of their senators and representatives. At best, some voters might be able to list a few bad things the OTHER guy said, since they are listening to news sources they like, and those news sources will tend to tell them what they want to hear.

Most people vote entirely by party; it doesn't matter what the politicians themselves say.

 

Very well said, I agree.

 

For the most part you are right, however enough people vote on the basis of what's said to win or lose an election. That's why dirty politics is so effective.

As far as capitalism goes, I don't like the way it is in the US. It fosters a climate of greed that creates the boom and bust cycles that keep happening in the US economy. When people see someone else making easy money on investments such as the stock market or property, they do just about anything to get on the money bandwagon and it always turns out to be a big pyramid game with a few big winners and most everybody else big losers. It's the gold rush syndrome over and over again, and the government could easily prevent it with regulation. But Oh! They deregulated and let banks go crazy with bad loans. And republicans wonder why they can't win a presidential election anymore.

 

Actually most are big winners, based on the steady increase in wealth. The rich have gotten vastly richer, but the poor have gotten richer as well - just a lot more slowly than the rich, and that gap is widening all the time.

Still, making poor people richer is not that bad an outcome. even if it carries with it the persistent business cycles that plague investors.

I think it would be VERY hard to regulate. It's inherent in capitalism, and is not a function of any one sector (banking, Internet startups, real estate etc etc.)

 

The poor have gotten richer? Which poor exactly would THAT be?

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Not every individual, but as a group, minus the recent recession, every income bracket has made gains and the poverty rate dropped over the past 30-40 years.

 

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-07-22/poverty-in-america/56417780/1


The rich are getting richer while the poor are getting poorer

http://www.forbes.com/sites/janetno...ta-shows-rich-are-staying-richer-poor-poorer/

 

Specifically the bottom 10% of the US based on income.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:United_States_Income_Distribution_1967-2003.svg

Note that that bottom line is very flat but is still going up over time. Not anywhere as quickly as the top line of course.

 

I don't see any upward trend there. Do I need a magnifying glass? And doesn't actual poverty level take into consideration things like the cost of living as well?

 

Yes, you do. The scale is pretty compressed. It's gone from only $10,000 in 1970 to $13,000 in 2000. (Adjusted to 2003 dollars to account for inflation.)

Which is very closely tied to inflation - which is why that chart is in corrected dollars. That guy who made $10,000 corrected dollars in 1970 actually saw $2100 in his paycheck back in the day.

(Don't get me wrong; I'd much rather that all those lines were rising at the same rate. But at least they're all rising.)

 

I think its an evil system, and it feeds on the worst that humans have inside them.

I all all for socialist super states they are making, and the idea that they are going to be watching everyone.

All you capitalists always forget that about 50% of people cannot make a life for themselves for what ever reason. The greed system is not something they work in, or thrive in. I cannot understand why americans are so immune to seeing that, and i am glad they are changing there ideas on that today, if they ever want a nwo type world.

Like the saying goes the gov will teach you how to live, as most of you have no idea how to use your brain.

I am glad that they are moving in that direction, and i say and said for along time now, this century they will get rid of greed. Last century they built greed, and fed on that, this century they have the techs to control this aspect, and go the other way. Its a long process, but one day the gov will run everything from underground bases, whether you know it or not. Its the best way to run society, and its already here in nato countries.

I am glad capitalism does not work, and will not work. Socialism for the future, a world where everything is run by the gov, whether you know it or not.

Technocracy is the only real system of the future, and its partly here today.

Remember 50% of people in general cannot make a life on there own. So everyone will be in the above system.

 

It seems that folks on this thread are mixing "capitalism" with "corporatism". And neither is as good as free enterprise.

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You may think that you live in a system like that in the future.

But maybe you live in a system where the rulers know how to use your mind and brain better than you.

There will come a time where everything is run by the gov, whether you know it or not.

Technocracy

 

If we are mixing corporatism and capitalism, it is because they are in reality already mixed in the form of "corporate capitalism". That's what most the quotes are referring to. There really isn't any other form of capitalism existing these days. Maybe there was a time when local merchants and mom and pop businesses competed on a level playing field. But not anymore:

"Corporate capitalism is a term used in social science and economics to describe a capitalist marketplace characterized by the dominance of hierarchical, bureaucratic corporations.

A large proportion of the economy of the United States and its labour market falls within corporate control.[1] In the developed world, corporations dominate the marketplace, comprising 50 percent or more of all businesses. Those businesses which are not corporations contain the same bureaucratic structure of corporations, but there is usually a sole owner or group of owners who are liable to bankruptcy and criminal charges relating to their business. Corporations have limited liability and remain less regulated and accountable than sole proprietorships.

Corporations are usually called public entities or publicly traded entities when parts of their business can be bought in the form of shares on the stock market. This is done as a way of raising capital to finance the investments of the corporation. The shareholders appoint the executives of the corporation, who are the ones running the corporation via a hierarchical chain of power, where the bulk of investor decisions are made at the top, and have effects on those beneath them.

Corporate capitalism has been criticized for the amount of power and influence corporations and large business interest groups have over government policy, including the policies of regulatory agencies and influencing political campaigns. Many social scientists have criticized corporations for failing to act in the interests of the people, and their existence seems to circumvent the principles of democracy, which assumes equal power relations between individuals in a society.[2]

Criticisms [edit]

Thomas Jefferson, one of the founders of the United States democratic system, said "I hope we shall take warning from the example and crush in it's [sic] birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength, and to bid defiance to the laws of their country."[3] Franklin D. Roosevelt, in an April 29, 1938 message to Congress, warned that the growth of private power could lead to fascism:


[T]he liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism—ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power.[4][5][6]
[...] Statistics of the Bureau of Internal Revenue reveal the following amazing figures for 1935: "Ownership of corporate assets: Of all corporations reporting from every part of the Nation, one-tenth of 1 percent of them owned 52 percent of the assets of all of them."[4][6]

Dwight D. Eisenhower criticized the notion of the confluence of corporate power and de facto fascism,[7] but nevertheless brought attention to the "conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry"[8] in his 1961 Farewell Address to the Nation, and stressed "the need to maintain balance in and among national programs -- balance between the private and the public economy, balance between cost and hoped for advantage."---http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_capitalism

 

Capitalism works on greed. Socialism works on altruism. That's why, as a system, capitalism succeeds far more than socialism does.

Almost all people, with very few exceptions, can make a life for themselves if they want to. If you remove any reason to want to, then yes, 50% would be content to do nothing.

Greed is hard wired into us. 12 month old babies exhibit greed. You'll never get rid of it, just as you will never get rid of lust, love, anger or hope. They are central to human beings.

It's been the best system for a few centuries now. Not ideal, but better than the alternatives. Remember the USSR?