There is more in common between Jews and Palestinians ....

Discussion in 'Politics' started by S.A.M., Jan 11, 2011.

  1. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    In the thread on Israeli natural gas findings, Lucysnow said:

    I thought it was an interesting statement since I could not see why there is more in common between Europeans [Jews] moving to Palestine as compared to Muslims moving to [Europe] Sweden. Aren't these just mirror images of each other?

    In what way would you consider them to be different kinds of integration? In case of a one state solution, would it be easier for Israeli Jews to integrate with Palestinians than it is for Muslim immigrants to integrate with the Swedes?

    What do you think?

    edit: could a mod change the title to "there is more in common between jews and palestinians..."

    original title is too long and does not show completely

    Thanks
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2011
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  3. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    Sam I was just looking to see what Israeli Jews and Palestinians have in common and I came across this disturbing article. Let me know what you think of it please:

    http://www.commongroundnews.org/article.php?id=27917&lan=en&sid=0&sp=0

    After reading that I started to think that I was wrong and that in actuality there may be a better chance of integration between muslim immigrants and Swedes if only because they don't have a history of mutual discontent but then I came across this written by a Prof. Hasan Yahya. He wrote a book on the commonalities between the two groups that could help them build common ground and looking at this issue from this perspective I think that there are more things that bind Jews and palestinians in Israel than there will be in the future for Swedes and immigrants as there is less to bridge the gap and more that gets in the way of integration. Integration in Europe is dependent on immigrants being absorbed into their host culture, basically they have to assimilate while holding some vestiges of their past origins. I don't think that the same would be required in Israel. Here is what the professor thinks the building blocks will be:

    Objectives: Both groups are humans equal in human right standards. Both Israeli and Palestinian people cherish peaceful life which can be achieved by the law of wisdom survival between them. No doubt that both have historical wisdom to survive into modern times. Both have a supreme objective which is to peacefully and freely practice their beliefs in their independent states.

    Origin: Both came from one aroma started from Adam and Eve and later Abraham. Both are Semite people. Both peoples have one Holy Father, Abraham. Both belong to common space and time through history-Palestine.

    Religion: God is One among Jews and Arab Palestinians. Respect on ones God determines respect of others' God and belief practices. Some may convert or create their own religion. No one can tell how future religions and beliefs may look like. Keep it for the new generations to decide if they wanted to stick with wisdom survival between the two groups and have freely decide their adapted beliefs.

    History: Both peoples have common history in Religious books. The Old Testaments and Jesus history from Abraham to modern times to be recognized equally as great past shared by both Arab Palestinians and Jews. Future history is what is necessary for both to create together as neighbors participating in planned modern civilization.


    Conflict commonality: Palestinians are connected with Jews, in conflict over land in the last one hundred years, and vise versa. No part exist without the other part. Your destiny is to live together not to die.

    Taking into account that land does not belong to one people alone in terms of time and space. Land, in fact belongs to those who reside over it in time and space, use it, cultivate it, and live over it. Therefore, both have the right to live and survive on the land belongs to them. Soon, all will pass away.

    The offspring of both will have different mentalities colored with more common interest. The new generations among Jews and Arab Palestinians, will be more mixed of both Arabic and Jewish culture distinguished by certain characteristics not totally Jewish nor Arabic. Flexibility of joining hearts with minds should lead the future not otherwise. A new product developed through social interactions, and hate and love emotions. Land or state may become a member of federal united state includes both.


    Read more: http://www.articlesbase.com/philoso...d-arab-palestinians-804692.html#ixzz1AkCZR5Gm
    Under Creative Commons License: Attribution
     
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  5. Mrs.Lucysnow Valued Senior Member

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    Also what about Arab Jews Sam? Don't they have more in common with muslims in the area?

    *edit* In the first post the notion is that its the land and religion that binds the two. In this post I'm asking if Arab Jews are bound by similar cultural memes.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2011
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  7. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I think Prof Hasan Yahya is kindly disposed but essentially clueluss - Ghassan Michel Rubeiz is clearly more aware of what is going on

    Lets compare his theories [religious, political, humanist, sociological, etc] with the facts

    Opinion 1: Objectives: Both groups are humans equal in human right standards. Both Israeli and Palestinian people cherish peaceful life which can be achieved by the law of wisdom survival between them. No doubt that both have historical wisdom to survive into modern times. Both have a supreme objective which is to peacefully and freely practice their beliefs in their independent states.

    Fact: This is a typical graffiti in Arab neighborhoods where Jewish settlers want to move in. Note the exciting blue doors. And the peaceful contrast of the humanist message

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    Opinion 2: Origin: Both came from one aroma started from Adam and Eve and later Abraham. Both are Semite people. Both peoples have one Holy Father, Abraham. Both belong to common space and time through history-Palestine.

    Fact:

    Note that all the Muslims and Christians are of native origin while hardly any of the Jews are. In fact, the Jews are not even all from the same continent. The languages, dress, religion and culture, even cuisine have no point of commonality.

    for example:

    Jewish cuisine:

    Opinion 3: Religion: God is One among Jews and Arab Palestinians.

    Fact: Eh? Most Jews are atheists and don't believe in God. There are no atheist Muslims/Christians in Palestine. Besides, the Jewish religion is based on race and is transferred by blood when halacha is followed. There are separate courts for Jews and non-Jews for religious and civil issues in Israel.


    Opinion 4: History: Both peoples have common history in Religious books. The Old Testaments and Jesus history from Abraham to modern times to be recognized equally as great past shared by both Arab Palestinians and Jews.


    Fact: Read "The Invention of the Jewish People" by Shlomo Sand. Then read A History of the Arab Peoples by Albert Hourani. Or if you want to be more limited, read History of Palestine: the last two thousand years by Jacob Haas. Read a bit about Palestinian narrative vs Israeli narrative in "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" by Pappe Let me know what you think of the common history of Palestinians and Jews.

    Opinion 5:Conflict commonality: Palestinians are connected with Jews, in conflict over land in the last one hundred years, and vise versa. No part exist without the other part. Your destiny is to live together not to die.

    Compare that to the Palestinian history of conflict - since Jews at any time point are Jews even though the word Jew is an eighteenth century invention, I'll use the same criteria for other ethnicities

    Syrian occupation - 100 years
    Iranian occupation - 200 years [539-332 BC]
    Italian occupation - 500 years [68 C.E. to 614 C.E.]
    Arab occupation - 614 to 1099 C.E. ie 485 years
    European occupation - 1099 -1520 C.E. 421 years
    Turkish occupation - 1520 - 1919 C.E. ~400 years
    British occupation - 1919-1948 29 years
    Israeli occupation of Palestine - 1948 - current 62+ years

    What makes the Israelis so special?

    Opinion 6 : The offspring of both will have different mentalities colored with more common interest. The new generations among Jews and Arab Palestinians, will be more mixed of both Arabic and Jewish culture distinguished by certain characteristics not totally Jewish nor Arabic. Flexibility of joining hearts with minds should lead the future not otherwise. A new product developed through social interactions, and hate and love emotions. Land or state may become a member of federal united state includes both.

    Fact: Breaking News from Occupied Palestine!!!!

    And the same as reported in the New York Times:
    click me


    So I don't see anything in common at all. Neither religion, nor culture, nor language, nor history, nor goals. The Palestinians want a secular state with equal civil rights for all citizens, Jewish Israelis want a Jewish state with one set of rules for Jews and another for the goyim. Where would the twain meet?
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2011
  8. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Ah, I see. Well Arab Jews like "The artist formerly known as Prince", have been reinvented as Mizrahi Jews. They had to choose between being Jews or Arabs and they chose to be Jews [there is the odd duck like Uri Avnery but these are mostly irrelevant cosmopolitan Jews]. I'm sure there used to be commonalities between them once upon a time, but except for some scattered individuals in the US they no longer self identify as Arab Jews.

    Again, Jews from Yemen were like Yemenis, Jews from Iran were like Iranians, Jews from Iraq were like Iraqis, Jews from India were like Indians. Jews from Palestine, must surely have been like Palestinians at some point, but I don't know what Israeli Jews are like.

    From Huffington Post:

    But I think in the long run, the differences between the Arab and non-Arab Jews will be ameliorated at the expense of the Arab traditions of the Jews, so this will actually create greater differences between the Palestinians and Jews in Israel.

    I wonder, how would you compare this with Muslim immigrants in the EU? What are the factors affecting assimilation and integration there, specifically?
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2011
  9. Gustav Banned Banned

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    easy......

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    some commonalities...in the name of barbarism, we stand united

    In 2001, Sweden enacted a law allowing only persons certified by the National Board of Health to circumcise infants. It requires a medical doctor or an anesthesia nurse to accompany the circumciser and for anaesthetic to be applied beforehand. After the first two months of life circumcisions can only be performed by a physician. The stated purpose of the law was to increase the safety of the procedure.

    Swedish Jews and Muslims objected to the law,and in 2001, the World Jewish Congress stated that it was "the first legal restriction on Jewish religious practice in Europe since the Nazi era (wikishit)

    ummm
    anyone seen godwin around?
    england seems to be a bit more open to a dialogue than the "nazi" nordics...
    Widely known as one of the most intellectual of the 1,400-year-old line of archbishops, Williams is a poet who was once arrested at a nuclear weapons protest. He has been deeply critical of the war in Iraq, outspoken about making religion relevant to thinking believers and eager to build bridges with the other religious communities that form an integral part of the British population.

    He stepped into the Sharia debate with open eyes in a widely publicized lecture Thursday night at the Royal Courts of Justice, and a lengthy interview with the BBC, in which he argued that the traditions of other religious communities often have a foothold in law, while Muslims may be forced into conflict between their traditions and the law of the land.

    "If what we want socially is a pattern of relations in which a plurality of diverse and overlapping affiliations work for a common good, and in which groups of serious and profound conviction are not systematically faced with the stark alternatives of cultural loyalty or state loyalty, it seems unavoidable," he said in his speech before about 1,000 people, mostly lawyers.

    "We have Orthodox Jewish courts operating in this country legally and in a regulated way because there are modes of dispute resolution and customary provisions which apply there in the light of Talmud," he said.

    "It's not a new problem, not to mention the questions . . . about how the consciences of Catholics, Anglicans and others who have difficulty over issues like abortion are accommodated within the law; so the whole idea that there are perfectly proper ways in which the law of the land pays respect to custom and community, that's already there."

    The archbishop emphasized that he was not proposing to open the door to laws allowing women to be forced into marriage or stoned if they commit adultery.

    "Nobody in their right mind, I think, would want to see in this country a kind of inhumanity that sometimes appears to be associated with the practice of the law in some Islamic states -- the extreme punishments, the attitudes to women as well," he said. ​

    http://www.nevilleawards.com/multiculti3.shtml

    now...
    if halakha...then sharia
    some draw distinctions, others do not. i for one, troll that i am, see this.....

    The state of the nation is such that not a single registered mullah in the city of Lahore with its 13 million people was willing to read Taseer's funeral prayers, because they were too scared to do so.

    Five hundred lawyers have signed up to defend Taseer's killer Mumtaz Qadri, but Taseer's wife cannot find a single criminal lawyer to prosecute him. It is hard to see which judge is even likely to pursue the case to its obvious conclusion.

    Meanwhile Qadri is making YouTube videos from jail of himself singing Islamic hymns and over 70 pages on Facebook have appeared in his support (and thankfully been pulled down rapidly by Facebook Inc).​

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jan/08/ahmed-rashid-taseer-pakistan-precipice/print
    http://articles.cnn.com/2011-01-07/...fense-lawyer-islam-blasphemy-laws?_s=PM:WORLD

    why would it be any different in europe? is this what you want for us, sam? :bawl:

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    Allah Almighty Himself is the Guardian of dignity of His beloved Prophet (SAW), so He does not wait for any worldy court or justice system, and immediately arranges execution some times by Ghazi Ilam Din Shaheed and some times by Ghazi Mumtaz Qadri. ..Allah O Akbar.

    Islamic Republic of Pakistan should release Ghazi Malik Mumtaz Qadri and make him Governor of Punjab.

    Malik Mumtaz Qadri done a tremendous job. May ALLAH GIVE A BEST REWARD.

    He is the true Muslim Hero... we love u brother..

    Those who do not respect our Beloved Prophet do not have any resepct and those who support such dis-respected people directly or indirectly do not deserve any resepct either.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2011
  10. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Maybe I'm missing the point here. Are you saying it is easier for Muslim immigrants to assimilate in Europe than it is for Israeli Jews to assimilate with Palestinians?

    Iran is the only country besides Israel which presently has sharia courts [India has family laws based on sharia as well but no official sharia courts]. Pakistan has a civil jurisprudence.
     
  11. Gustav Banned Banned

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    perhaps

    i respond to that with an opinion based on whatnot


    and yes, my reference to sharia in western nations involved civil matters

    These halakha courts are already functioning within the legal system of the U.S. Jewish divorce cases are sometimes handled by the Beth Din of America, the Jewish Religious Court who can issue a Get or Jewish permission for divorce. “Under American law the procedures and rulings of Jewish law courts are treated just as any other produced by a legal arbitration hearing.” The Beth Din of America issues statements on ethical issues such as stem cell research. There is a site where Halachic forms can be downloaded (e.g. Living will, financial forms, pre-nuptial agreements).

    There are sometimes differences between religious and constitutional law as for example the difference in American law and halakha law on the subject of self incrimination. In such cases the American legal system would ignore the rulings of the religious courts.

    For a Jewish court’s arbitration to be binding in the U.S. the parties involved must sign a binding arbitration agreement.​

    http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/ta...sharia_and_jewish_halakha_arbitration_courts/
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2011
  12. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Opinion is nice, but facts are better. I'm trying to uphold the scientific method here

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    What makes integration possible? What would you consider an integrated society? What would a disintegrating society look like?

    Personally I see no problem having a variety of civil courts, as long as there is protection of basic human rights for all.
     
  13. Gustav Banned Banned

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    i suppose

    goodbye sam
    goodbye sci
    mom dad i love you

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  14. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Oh please!

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    I'm referring to stuff like this:

    Read on for Education, Health, Land and Housing, Unrecognised villages, Expression of culture, etc

    http://www.sa.org.au/palestine/2758-the-myth-of-israeli-democracy

    Or this [since this is closer to home]

     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2011
  15. Gustav Banned Banned

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    perhaps but my love and abject devotion to the scientific method constrains me....

    see? "there". as "in the eu"

    *an adherence to the scientific method and logic
    *one that adheres to the above
    *one that does not

    shall we now discuss circumcision and cartoons? other issues facing muslim immigrants in western lands? within the constraints of an integrated society?

    lets wait till page 12 for that shit

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  16. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

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    Here's one perspective, The Jewish faith to my knowledge is based on, in and around that particular territory. Obviously they probably would have initially integrated with the Palestinians in that territory however due to the holocaust it was likely their decision to not integrate again due to the persecution they suffered at the hand of the Nazi's. (I guess a preventative measure to stop history repeating itself).

    This of course backfired because it just drove the indigenous people to despise them "...for claiming Palestinian land their own"

    Now we look to Muslim's flocking to Sweden. Understandably a majority of Muslim's just want to go somewhere to perhaps lead a better life, perhaps escaping poverty, escaping power struggles or hard-line extremism. Obviously they haven't been issued a state, Sweden has not been split to give them their own country, in essence I believe Sweden's expectation is like that of many other western nations, the assumption that Muslim except that they are there to be assimilated by that state not to recondition it within their own image. (Of course this doesn't rule out that they can be apart of the citizenry and over years of re-pour can't alter how the country is seen. In fact again this is the main reason why mosque's exist in Western cultures because those that assimilated were initially subtle as apposed to "in-your-face hardliner".)

    The problem occurs however that some of the youth and people seem to be impatient, they want to see their way adopted by their adopting country and this itself causes abrasion.

    That is the difference between the two view points, one had (past tense) a displaced patronage with no country to patron over them, while the other has tens if not hundreds of countries with that particular faith but they choose to patronise in countries that don't adhere to their religious rule and then they get upset when that country doesn't want to bend to their whim.
     
  17. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Oh baloney. Most Jews are theists, and there are many atheistic Muslims and Christians wherever there are educated, literate Muslims and Christians - Palestine is not a backwater, uneducated place. The Jewish religion is not based on race (your easy adoption of Nazi propaganda themes is common among Muslims in their discussions of Jewry generally, I've noticed), and I know three marital converts to Judaism from northern Eurpean white racial stock myself - there are also black Jews, some yellow.
    No they don't. They want an Islamic State, with toleration of a couple of related religions as subsidiary and deep intolerance for a host of other religions and areligious types.
    They immediately make equal protection under the law impossible.
     
  18. pjdude1219 screw watergate i want to know about zaragate Valued Senior Member

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    untrue

    that is the way Israel has painted them and that line is for the most part the only one readily available in the west but it is false. the reason Hamas won the election had nothing to do with their heave religious message and everything to do with Fatah's corruption. Most palestinians simply want their legal rights. or have you forgotten about the christian palestinians?
     
  19. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    So is Zoroastrianism, Pharoism, Christianity and Islam, probably many Sumerian and Babylonian religions as well as Assyrian, Greek and Mediterranean ones as well



    You mean Jews in India, Russia, Yemen etc were waiting for the European Holocaust to return to Jerusalem? What do you think of the Jewish "aliyahs" who preceded Nazism ie in the 1880s and organised militias against the Arabs?

    e.g. the Irgun founded by a Russian Zionist Ze'v Jabotinsky who came to Palestine in 1914 and formed an armed paramilitary organisation called the Jewish Legion followed by its devolution into the terrorist organisation called Irgun.

    Why do you think these Russian Jews decided to dispossess the Palestinians? Jabotinsky btw was an atheist so it couldn't have been for any fictional temple or mythical Messiah.

    Hardly surprising since no one welcomes anyone who comes with the intent to kill or dispossess.
    Is that why churches also exist in the west? Because the initial Christians were subtle? How about synagogues? Were they subtly installed as well? I bet Europe has some subtle Hindu temples and Buddhist pagodas too.

    You mean they behave like first and second generation immigrants instead of like native residents? How odd.

    Do you think countries are established by religious adherence? Or are you suggesting they should be? Is it possible for Jews to live in non-Jewish countries without "patronage" or should they establish a Jewish state wherever they want to settle?

    Don't be silly. Either they are Muslims or Christians or they are atheists. Unlike Jews, there is no matrilineal descent to provide religious denomination by blood.

    I disagree that most Jews are theists. I think most Jews are secular or atheist with perhaps a greater concentration of the ultra orthodox haredim in places like Israel and some parts of the US - perhaps because being haredi is a full time occupation and too expensive where state welfare does not provide for study.

    The Jewish religion is based on race. It is based entirely on matrilineal descent according to Halacha. This is so strictly enforced that half Jews are not buried in Jewish cemeteries.

    Well if they want that then by the example of the Israelis they are certainly entitled to it. After all, its the decision of the people themselves if they want a democratic government or a theocratic one. Regardless, whatever their internal conspiracies official proposals for a Palestinian state have always proposed a state for all Palestinians with offers of citizenship for Jewish settlers within the borders.


    We have various civil laws in India and they work well enough that we do not have to employ Communication Management Units to contain the devout. Law after all is only as good as the tyrant wielding it.
     
  20. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    You'll have to take that up with them. I lean toward taking the believer's word for their status, especially in cases - such as the Muslims in many places including, apparently, Palestine - in which apostasy or blasphemy or the like have serious consequences, and religions are assigned by family, tribe, etc.
    Your adoption of racial designation for Jews is typical of the Muslims here - and rather striking. The connotations, in Western history, are ugly.
    Your "thinking" on the matter of other people's theistic beliefs you know little about has a poor track record in the areas I can personally check.
    No. The opposite was meant, pretty clearly.
    That doesn't improve the prospect of it. It's an ugly little world.
    There are a variety of ways to violate equal protection under the law. I'm not proud of the US ones.
     
  21. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I think those are circular arguments already dealt with ad nauseum before.

    Perhaps you have something to add to Lucy's premise that there is more in common between Jews and Palestinians than Muslim immigrants and Swedes

    Perhaps you could also comment on this article she linked: http://www.commongroundnews.org/article.php?id=27917&lan=en&sid=0&sp=0
     
  22. DanceAndExplode Fear me, for I am Death. Registered Senior Member

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  23. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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