"there is always an alpha in any group"

So what do you think of my notions?

Actually, even wolves tend to have a very rough system of law. The alpha of a pack is usually responsible for insuring fair distribution among the other members of the pack, thereby avoiding conflict. If he fails in these responsibilities, the pack will become unruly and uncooperative, and he will eventually be replaced. Humans and other sophisticated mammals tend to be more impressed with fairness and trustworthiness than they are with force. When they do not feel that their leader is fair or trustworthy, they tend to become hostile toward him or her, viz our love/hate relationship with politicians.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

So the early researchers were wrong. And now that we have redefined "alpha" to exclude complete control over the big male(s) - because he doesn't actually take orders from the matriarch, and he does win all the fights - and exclude fighting or coercion, and not really control matters such as reproduction (the big male mates largely at his own discretion, with curbing of rape by group rather than alpha dominance), we have arranged things so that we can identify an "alpha".

I'm wondering whether you realize what your inability to predict "alpha" status in humans, the necessity of training people for it, and the variable nature of it, implies.

I mean, it's not a totally useless concept - but it's a long way from an adequate description of general human social order.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

What?! What did you just say? And what the hell does it mean?

What's with this "prediction" issue that you keep bringing up?? And people aren't "trained" to be an alpha, they ARE an alpha. It's displayed in child care centers all the time. It's displayed in the workplace all the time ...and, yes, an alpha does NOT have to be the boss, he can be the alpha of a small group of co-workers.

I think, seriously, that you're not understanding the concept of the "alpha male" or the "alpha" characteristic. Please do some checking on the concept and please forget the idea of "predicting" anything.

Baron Max

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

I think it is. Its obvious on the playground, in high school, at work, bars, etc.

I've found its best to be the best friend of an alpha. Some of the power, with none of the responsibility. I married an alpha.

 

It means there is a gigantic conspiracy to tie a knot in the cocks of these would-be "alpha shitheads," and the apes are in on it. Part of the scheme is to limit the amount of productive sex you're allowed to have if you haven't joined the cause.

 

Having more than one in a group can lead to disaster, though. They spend more time fighting than getting things done. My cheerleading team was like that in high school. To many leaders and not enough followers. It tore the team apart.

 

It happens all the time, Marie. And if you look around the world, at world politics, international relations, conservative-liberal conflicts, abortion rights conflicts, gun control, drug legalization, gay rights, .....hell, the list goes on forever of various alphas trying to take control. And such alpha fights/conflicts are going on all the time, all over the world.

Baron Max

 

Alpha male is a homogenized cultural bastardization of genocidal ideology.

i.e are we talking a short black bald overweight man ?

or... are we talking about an american christian ideological patriarchal system of monochrome cultural definition in a gender stereo typed environment ?

terms of reference is the key.

 

Please find out what "alpha" means in group psychology. When you do, you'll see that all of your questions mean nothing whatsoever.

Baron Max

 

There alpha dogs, alpha wolves, alpha gorillas. It's just the idea that in a group of animals, someone will always rise to dominance. If you've owned multiple dogs your whole life, like I have, then you will have directly observed it.

Gorillas are very brutal in some ways. In a lot of cases, after expelling (or killing) a former silverback gorilla from a group... a new leader will go around to each of the females in the group and kill any infants that belonged to the old alpha gorilla.

Kind of sickening, eh?

 

Not nearly as sickening as what some humans will do to both humans as well as animals. Humans are worse than all of the animals combined.

Baron Max

 

ok soo... correct me if i'm wrong but is not the assertion that true democracy is a fallacy ?

whos paradigm is that ?
yours ? baah baah ?

 

cats and orca play with other animals and torture them to death.
however...
it is unknown if orca actually realise/ are aware of the torment put on baby seals when they play with them.

it might well be that higher intellect requires transition through sadism to achieve empathy.
but... no point in feeding pearls to swine.

 

Until you try to predict the alpha in a slightly changed situation, and find yourself in difficulties.

The army has a much easier identification task - a very narrow definition of "alpha", with a limited range of applicability, and a very strong interest in identifying the ability to perform in that role - and even in that simplified situation it can't do it reliably. So it's not "obvious".

Humans have all kinds of leaders. Think of a choir - there are a couple of people in most choirs whose voices are the truest, whom everybody else follows and trusts. Are they the "alphas"?

Here is a good example of the central issue, bold mine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_Joseph

 

native Americans are the living shame of the american settlers as much as the African Americans who cant look past their own sense of oppression to seek common and enlightened allies.

it makes me want to spit every time i hear american culture defined by some type of self styled anti non violent anti intellect skin colour defined social class.
i dont give a damn what your stupid skin colour is.
if you are going to call yourself black or white as if it is some type of self validation then your weak and someone i do not want around me or in my circle of freinds.

you dont see light skinned people going around saying "kiss my white ass"
and "black people cant math" or some such retarded separatist attempt at colloquial trend setting.

its a funny picture from my position
watching the whites play money maker./chaser/power and greed monger and the blacks play who is the blackest and the reds doing their thing like an unused library treated like a shameful soul pariah to the other naval gazing treadmill foot soldiers.

the army needs leaders who can lead, they dont need to worry too much about who the chosen follower is by the group(wont be the best leader and never is with ordinary people) because they have instilled discipline and respect for authority by the time they need to actuate a group dynamic(special ops level mental discipline i am referring to).

ive studied psychology for close to 30 years and 1 thing is for sure...
those who define themselves as alpha males/females are the ones who will crash and burn first, AND the group never chooses the best leader, they choose the one they want to have sex with(party/socialise).
funny huh

 

Why do you continue with this line of reasoning? The is nothing in ideal of the alpha of a group having anything to do with "predictions" of anything?! What are you talking about??

And you keep talking about the army?? The army finds leaders of men just like any other company or corporation. The men who show that they can lead others are promoted, it's as simple as that. You act like the army sets out a course of some kind as a test??!! NO! From basic training on through the years, the apha character (the leaders) stand out from the group.

No one is predicting anything, and predicting something has nothing to do with the alpha character in a group.

Baron Max

 

this is the bit which i find quite fascinating.
the most valuable member of the group may not wish to be the leader.

why is it that the leader is always defined as the most important and that anyone who is really smart and good at lots of things will want to be the leader ?
ive been always top of pretty much everything i did amongst groups of my peers at school and growing up but i have never wanted to be a leader of the nature that is set out as a normal template.

there is lies the issue! the template of the type of leader is defined by the group not the skill and ability.
a truly great leader knows how to connect with people who have the skills to solve the problems they have been tasked with.
an average leader trys to insert their own control and domination of an issue rather than finding the best solution for the problem.

i am happy being a leader, however i wont bother trying to lead a group where one must fight to be heard among the lack of common courtesy and reasoned logic.

men will mostly always select the most physically attractive male to be the leader and will organise themselves around him to manage that real challenging issues never touch him.
its quite weird but quiet fascinating watching it play our over weeks of interaction.
women will always choose a dark haired women as their leader and one that is cute and not flashy and has an even flat voice tone that looks like the classic "young attractive house wife" but will instill far more importance on her having a better intellectual ability to solve problems far more complex than men will choose to deal with.

"there is always an alpha in any group!" = no

the reality is those who wish to make a grab for power will almost always be the first to suggest the position be created and a nice democratic vote be had.
they stir to have someone chosen to play god while they work their scams and deals sitting at the leaders left hand(sometimes right).

one of the most pronounced examples of the seriously poor education kids are given is this basic situation where a group of people cant just act as a group forming group decisions.
they have been brainwashed and mentally babied soo much they cant stand on their own feet and be accountable for themselves and want to get someone who will tell them what to do.

to me a group that feels the need to appoint a leader is a group that have already failed the evolutionary step and one i would prefer not to be in.

 

Tough shit, Jack, .....you're already in just such a group and there ain't nothin' you can do to change that.

Are you one of those silly dreamers that actually think you have real choices in life?? ...LOL!

Baron Max

 

SOo... you blame others for having control over you as an excuse to not bother trying to change anything for the better ?

mowing your lawn must be like the french revolution to you every time.

 

No, but I try not to let a "battleship mouth" run away with a "rowboat ass"!

It's easy, oh, so easy, to make declarations and state idealism, and sound, ooh, so wonderful and romatic. But the reality is that none of it is so simple in real life, and anyone who does not take reality into account in his rantings and his dealings is likely to be nothing but a bag of hot air.

You may dream your silly dreams of life, but if you voice those same silly dreams, then be prepared to defend those same silly dreams in the face of reality.

My guess is that, right now, you're dreaming all of your silly, idealistic dreams from the comforts of a home that someone else is pay for. Doesn't say much for the value of your idealism, does it?

Baron Max