# The Word "Infidel"

Discussion in 'Linguistics' started by Michael, Nov 3, 2010.

1. ### Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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God gave his only begotten son for our sins.

What the economy needs is a really good War.

There's only one god and Mohammad is his messenger.

Vote out all incumbents!

Judge NOT least you be judged.

Pinko Commie.

The fool has said in his heart, there is no God.

Liberal Pigs.

Wingnut.

That’s, like, sooo cliche!

Last edited: Nov 7, 2010

3. ### GeoffPCaput gerat lupinumValued Senior Member

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As an example of a stupid cliché, I'd pick "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". Utterly regrettable.

5. ### Fraggle RockerStaff Member

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Huh??? We have plenty of beliefs. It just happens that belief in an invisible, illogical supernatural universe full of creatures and forces that can cause the laws of the natural universe to be violated (instead of simply appearing to be violated, which will then require some good scientific investigation) is not one of them. In fact in a science- and scholarship-oriented community like this one, I think you'll find that most of the atheists here believe very strongly in the scientific method.
But wait, if all the Indians in America are Brahmins, how could they end up marrying a Dalit or a member of any other caste??? Sure, I've met a couple whose parents are flying them home for an arranged marriage, and obviously their parents are going to arrange a match that follows their rules, but these are hardly the enlightened, liberated expats of whom we're speaking. If they find a wife/husband here, she/he will either be another Brahmin or a someone who isn't from India. And I know several Indians who have married Americans; they never talk about how that little incident went over with the folks back home.
That's just one of the classical fallacies they teach you about in Logic 101A, the Binary Fallacy. (Forgive me for not remembering the "proper" names for these things from a class I took fifty years ago.) It's predicated on the assumption that all the members of the class under consideration fall into one of two categories. This is certainly true of some categorizations, like male/female or living/dead, but it's fallacious to extend it to other arguments without careful consideration. Politicians, of course, make it their duty to simplify the world for us, and binary reasoning is one of their primary tools.
They're not Senior and Junior. The father is George Herbert Walker Bush; the son is George Walker Bush. They are incorrectly called "Sr." and "Jr." so often that all the search engines accept them, and many authorities have given up on correcting the usage.

But this is the Linguistics subforum so I will correct you on your terminology.

I'm both a small-L and big-L Libertarian, and Ron Paul has become sort of a cross we have to bear. Thirty years ago when the movement and the party reached critical mass, Reason magazine began publishing, etc., communism was the biggest issue so libertarianism was primarily an economic philosophy. But today it's more about individual freedom than economic freedom and dinosaurs like Ron Paul are relics from the past. We've figured out that the dogmatic leftists want to take away our money first and the dogmatic rightists want to take away our rights first, but they both have the same goal of taking away all our rights and all our money and creating a massive state that controls everything.

Ron Paul the dinosaur is still mired in an era when despotism was one of the most common forms of government. If we gave a country foreign aid, most of it was indeed going to end up being spent on hookers, champagne, bulletproof Rolls Royces, and lots of weapons to make war on the despot in the next country. Thirty years ago I personally took up a collection at the office to help the poor people in Ethiopia, who were suffering a famine of biblical proportions. It was a rude awakening to discover that most of the food we sent over there was intercepted by government agents who sold it on the black market and used the money for their own evil purposes. (Well, "South Park" says Sally Struthers ate it all, maybe they got it right.)

Today there are still despots, but the percentage of the world's population who live under that type of uncaring, dysfunctional government gets smaller every year. It really is possible to make a difference by sending money, if you're really careful. Ron Paul will never understand that.
Yeah, but there sure are a lot of smart answers.

Oh you're getting into one of my pet peeves: Most scientists are abysmally poor communicators, and you'd almost think they use language that is deliberately crafted to thwart understanding by laymen. It's like science is a medieval guild craft, and you're not allowed to understand any of it until you've served your apprenticeship and sworn your oath of secrecy. The word "theory" means one thing to a mathematician, something else to a psychologist, and something totally different to a police detective. So why do scientists use it with a totally different fourth meaning? Why not come up with a whole new word???

7. ### Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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Theory was co-opted by the general public perhaps as an Appeal to Science fallacy?

People LOVE to say: Well, it's my "theory" that blah blah blah.... as if adding the word "theory" somehow makes the bullshit they're spewing 'scientifically' palatable

Last edited: Nov 8, 2010
8. ### Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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Captive Converts? Egypt Gripped By Rising Muslim-Christian Tensions

NOTE: Yes, where did those guys leave their Islam???

As soon as you hear the word: Infidel, Heretic, Unbeliever expect the same sort of bullshit from someone who starts their sentence with: It's my Theory....

Today's Lay-Scientist is yesterday's Prophet/Pharaoh/Messiah

God told me, from an angel, that we men can have up to 4 wives

In the future: A Scientist told me, I can have up to 4 wives....

Last edited: Nov 8, 2010
9. ### GeoffPCaput gerat lupinumValued Senior Member

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Fraggle, I appreciate this. But, even as someone who gets "Geoff, you're using too much jargon" from my advisors, I can tell you that it is unbelievably excruciating to have to break down our jargon into base English every time we try to explain something even to our own community - and as a quantitative geneticist, I get it from all sides except my own. I'm continually required to go through massive convolutions to get across a point which people in my field would find utterly apparent. Why? Because although people are experts in their end of biology, no one cares what my system is enough to learn anything about it. "I disagree with you!" "On what grounds?" "I don't know!" Seriously, enough.

From my perspective, it's a combination of expediency - and, really, in what other field do the jargonistas have to dissemble into some series of Mickey Mouse definitions? - and, yes, almost exactly as above: if you don't know what we're talking about, shut the hell up. Jesus, we have enough to do without explaining goddamned everything. If I want to plow through the components of sentences, or expound on the relevance of any given body of literature, I'm expected to pick up a goddamned book and learn what I'm talking about before I open my yap. If I want to understand a discussion on Monet, it would help if I knew something about his work. If I want to rewire a fuse box, I have to learn something about it. There are innumerable examples. Auto repair. Astronomy. Cooking. Bee-keeping. Calvinism. Dante. Economics. Fishing. Geography. And so on. I'm so tired of people bitching that science doesn't make things clear - we do make things clear, and it's not our fault that people don't follow our language. It's not meant to be elitist, but functional.

Sorry. That's my vent.

10. ### Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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Church leader calls for Christians to leave Iraq after brutal attack

Some 50 people were killed and 75 wounded in the attack at the Sayidat al-Nejat church last week, including women, children and two priests.

Get this: The Copts (mentioned above) wouldn't allow a woman to divorce her asshole of a husband, so she in-turn 'converts' to Islam to legally seek a divorce (and probably get the hell out of Egypt), the Christians kidnap her (and start brainwashing her/thought termination with Love), this of course pisses off Muslims (oh no you didn't), being more prone to violence these days, the Muslims kill 50 Christians in Iraq, so she gets to live with that on her conscious. She only she hadn't crossed Baby Jesus, none of this would ever have happened. This strengthens her faith in God. All is right in the world - of insanity.

What's the Thought Deadening Cliche' here?
I'm not sure but something along the lines of:
Murder in defense of Allah is Godly?
Women are best seen not head?
It's all Eve's fault.
Women!

Here's something I was told today. A person who would like to attend University in the USA can't because he has to babysit his sister in the UK. Apparently unmarried Saudi woman are not allowed to live unchaperoned - even after they win a scholarship to Medical School in the UK.

I wonder what Thought Terminating Cliche' supports that bullshit?

Last edited: Nov 8, 2010
11. ### Gremmie"Happiness is a warm gun"Valued Senior Member

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You forgot one....Shit happens.

12. ### S.A.M.uniquely dreadfulValued Senior Member

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Here is a good one: Support our troops.

Can't get more thought terminating than that.

13. ### Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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Very true!

Uncle SAM needs YOU! ;p

Now

14. ### Fraggle RockerStaff Member

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That's a perfectly valid use of the word. This is our problem, right here:
"Theory" is a word with seven established, respected definitions. Unfortunately several of them are mutual contradictions, and three of the seven reflect popular usage. And that's just one dictionary. Another one candidly admits that "theory" is also an established non-technical alternative to the more technical word "hypothesis."

We can't fault laymen for using words in established ways. But we CAN fault scientists for using words in ways that confuse laymen. They can sit around in their ivory tower deciding what a word means like the Red Queen, but unlike the fictional domain in Through the Looking Glass, they do not have the respect, power or authority to enforce that meaning.

The best thing to do is what they do when naming a new species of animal, plant, fungus, algae, bacteria or archaea: Pull down their Greek and Latin dictionaries and coin a new compound word that doesn't already have a definition.

15. ### S.A.M.uniquely dreadfulValued Senior Member

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Thats because of colonialism, which is why we have a Fair and Lovely culture. How many Indians you know are married to non-white Americans?

Now that is a thought terminating cliche: fair and lovely or blondes have more fun

16. ### Fraggle RockerStaff Member

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I understand how you feel. But if one of your less cooperative neighbors goes out and uses the terminology of auto repair, apiculture (apparently you didn't actually read that one

), Dante or fishing incorrectly, he will do little or no harm, and what harm is done will likely focus on himself and his family.

On the other hand, when a hundred million people who are already hostile to science use scientific terminology incorrectly, in such a way that it misrepresents science in a very important way to a hundred million other people who aren't sure how they feel about science, they can do a lot of harm to the entire country. And if it happens to be one of the world's most powerful countries, it can do a lot of harm to the whole world.

Unlike the people who repair auto transmissions and replace garbage disposals, every scientist is trained to be a scholar, and scholarship includes both the ability and willingness to teach--even if the enthusiasm is sometimes regrettably lacking. How can we teach people if they can't understand what we say?

Nobody knows what a backflow valve or a limited-slip differential is without having the term defined. But everybody knows what a theory is--or at least assumes, quite reasonably and honestly, that they do.

Last edited: Nov 8, 2010
17. ### Red DevilBorn Again AthiestRegistered Senior Member

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1,996
Fraggles: In reply to athiests do not have beliefs, I am and I do.

I believe there is no god
I believe religion is the route of all evil (except buddhism)
I believe that there is 'something' after death but open minded on exactly what
I believe the mind is the soul for want of a better word
I believe in an after life but not of heaven and hell, Earth is hell. Anything else is heaven.

I have been contacted from 'beyond' on more than one occasion, via a sister who went to a medium, what was said was impossible to know except by me

I beleive religion is man made as is all gods

18. ### Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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Fair skin has been considered desirable long before Europeans colonized anywhere.
- a Chinese proverb: 一白遮三丑 which means means something like fairness can cover anything. I heard a Chinese once say, even an ugly woman can get a husband in China, if she's fair. Same in Japan.

- When I was young, I used to think that wearing a burka was manly a way for woman (perhaps a little vain) to protect their skin from the sun and being too tan.Which I still wonder wasn't at least a part of the ancient history of women wearing coverings (which predate God).

I've read many times that dark skin was always considered a sign of a feild worker/peasantry and fair skin was a sign of privilege. This was true in European countries as well as the USA - as much as anywhere else.

That fair and lovely guy looks like a joke.

Even Cleopatra bathed in spoiled milk for the lactic acid peeling (something people pay big money even today for at the salon!). The fact is, too much sun weathers the skin. I'm sure it didn't take long for women to realize less sun kept their skin protected and they looked better for longer. So, I'd blame this whole thing on women

I've seen Aussies in their 30s that looked literally 20 years older from a lifetime of tanning. It's literally wiped YEARS off their complexion as many minor unnoticeable changes in pigment grow into large moles and masses blotches - and more often than not skin cancer.

IF the west has any say on what is "contemporary" beauty, I'd say it's due to America's economic dominance. Thus, I predict almond shaped eyes to a cosmetic surgeons ticket to riches as Asia rises and Western people want the new "in" eye shape.

Going back to a Japanese example. When the Dutch arrived Japanese women wore wooden planks on their backs and fronts to flatten their breasts under their kimono (showing no breast shape was sexy). But, after seeing the huge Dutch female's breasts many Japanese women longed for huge breasts (even though Japanese men were recorded as thinking big breasts were NOT sexy and preferred hidden breasts (what you can't see you want more sort of idea). OTOH Japanese men longed to be hairy like Dutch. Which was written down, men wishing they were more "manly"/hairy. Of course women didn't like hairy apish men. So, again, what both men and women thought was sexy wasn't what their partners thought was sexy. Now, who won? WOMEN! Now many Japanese men think big breasts are sexy (blame women) and that they should be hairless (blame women again!). So, I maintain it's really women who (knowingly or not) have so much influence over the simple male subconscious, that they MAKE us act - - against even our own interest. Which is why Muslim men finally covered dat shit up - self preservation and saved their sanity

heh,,,,

Last edited: Nov 8, 2010
19. ### Fraggle RockerStaff Member

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I don't really know; I've only met one spouse and he was as white as the Queen's hiney. But you Indians come in a whole rainbow of colors! Four of the people I've worked with over the past few years are from way down south, speakers of Tamil, Telugu, etc., and they are some of the darkest-skinned people I've ever met. One of them is also one of the most gorgeous ladies I've ever met, I can't imagine she'd have trouble getting dates anywhere.

Thanks for posting that photoshopped portrait of Obama. It illustrates something I've been saying since he became well-known: the only thing that makes him look even remotely Afro-American is his skin color. And it's not even that dark! I've know Mexicans, Cubans, Arabs and Indians who were much darker than that. If he had chosen to identify himself as Euro-American, most people would not have given it a second thought--especially in a big cosmopolitan city where there are Mexicans, Cubans, Arabs and Indians in every subway car. I'm sure he made the choice to become a member of the Afro-American community--which is not the one he was a member of in his youth--for political reasons. It worked, so who can criticize him for the ploy?
Any woman can get a husband in China. Since the "One Child" policy parents have been aborting female fetuses so there is a huge surplus of men and not enough women to go around.
Those women are just fed up with Japanese men--they're workaholics AND alcoholics--and they'd simply rather stay single.
But people with more melanin--naturally darker skin--weather it much better. Melanin is just a good preservative. Seventy-year-old Afro-Americans look much younger and more attractive than we do at that age. Ditto for any dark-skinned ethnic group.

20. ### Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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Yes, I agree that can be the case. But have you ever seen a white person who has tanned on an Australian beach their whole life

uke:

I know 23-25 years old who have hyper pigmentation already - simply from trying to stay tan 100% of year. Too bad too because it's not going to do them any favors in the long run as they end up looking 90 years old by 30.

Which is ironic isn't it? Indians trying to look like the comic book character Alfred E. Neuman while Europeans try to look like used up leather

Frpom WIKI:
Skin tone preference varies by culture. Many historically favored and continue to favor lighter skin in women. In his foreword to Peter Frost's 2005 Fair Women, Dark Men, University of Washington sociologist Pierre L. van den Berghe writes: "Although virtually all cultures express a marked preference for fair female skin, even those with little or no exposure to European imperialism, and even those whose members are heavily pigmented, many are indifferent to male pigmentation or even prefer men to be darker."[31] A consequence of this is that, since higher-ranking men get to marry the perceived more attractive women, the upper classes of a society generally tend to develop a lighter complexion than the lower classes by sexual selection (see also Fisherian runaway).[32]

Studies have shown that lighter skin is generally preferred in all cultures and races. Today, and in much of the West, though tanned skin remains desirable, lighter skin is often seen as more attractive. Skin whitening products sales grew from $40 to$43 billion in 2008.[33] In Africa, skin whitening is not uncommon,[34] but in the African American community, lighter skin is generally considered more attractive than darker skin. During slavery, light-skinned African Americans were perceived as intelligent, cooperative, and beautiful.[35] They were more likely to work as house slaves, and were also given preferential treatment by plantation owners and their henchmen. For example, they had a chance to get an education.[36] Dark African Americans worked in the fields and did not get an education.[37]

Additionally, lighter skin is seen as more attractive in Latin America.[38] In Mexico and in Brazil, light skin represents power, as well as attractiveness.[39] A dark-skinned person is more likely to be discriminated against in Brazil.[40] Most South American actors and actresses have European features - blue eyes and pale skin. A light-skinned person is considered to be more privileged and have a higher social status; a person with light skin is considered more beautiful and it means that the person has more wealth. Skin color is such an obsession in these countries that specific words describe distinct skin tones from "hincha," Puerto Rican slang for "glass of milk" to "morena," literally "brown."[41]

In South Asian countries, light skin is seen as more attractive. A preference for lighter skin remains prevalent. In ancient China and Japan, for example, pale skin can be traced back to ancient drawings depicting women and goddesses with fair skin tones. In ancient China, Japan, and Southeast Asia, pale skin was seen as a sign of wealth. Thus, skin whitening cosmetic products are popular in East Asia.[42] 4 out of 10 women surveyed in Hong Kong, Malaysia, the Philippines and South Korea used a skin-whitening cream, and more than 60 companies globally compete for Asia's estimated \$18 billion market.[43] Changes in regulations in the cosmetic industry led to skin care companies like Super Skin Lightener introducing harm free skin lightners. In India also, pale skin is considered more attractive and skin whitening is prevalent. Most actors and actresses have light skin.[44]

The perception of beauty can be influenced by racial stereotypes about skin color; the African American journalist Jill Nelson wrote that "to be both prettiest and black was impossible"[45] and elaborated:

As a girl and young woman, hair, body, and color were society's trinity in determining female beauty and identity, the cultural and value-laden gang of three that formed the boundaries and determined the extent of women's visibility, influence, and importance. For the most part, they still are. We learn as girls that in ways both subtle and obvious, personal and political, our value as females is largely determined by how we look. As we enter womanhood, the pervasive power of this trinity is demonstrated again and again in how we are treated by the men we meet, the men we work for, the men who wield power, how we treat each other and, most of all, ourselves. For black women, the domination of physical aspects of beauty in women's definition and value render us invisible, partially erased, or obsessed, sometimes for a lifetime, since most of us lack the major talismans of Western beauty. Black women find themselves involved in a lifelong effort to self-define in a culture that provides them no positive reflection.[45]

It should also be noted:

By contrast, in other cultures, particularly those without much exposure to modern society and the social biases created towards skin color, there exist a negative cultural reaction to pale skin and it is looked upon unfavorably. A number of indigenous African groups such as the Masai, would abandon their children born with conditions such as albinism and there exists sexual preference for darker skin.[30] Pale skin has been associated with being cursed or evil spirits associated with witch craft in such societies.

I'm not sure if I'd conclude skin color and "race" as a thought-terminating cliche', meme, Oldpseak IS Newspeak or something else?

Last edited: Nov 9, 2010
21. ### Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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I'm not sure if you noticed this or not SAM but..... come on.
Qur'an, #55 verse 70 In them will be fair (Companions), good, beautiful.

Note: Upper Heaven doesn't have Dark companions SAM, oh no ... no no no no no no, Heave is Perfect and so it has White ones. You know, I had always wondered why until the day I learned Mohammad owns stock in Fair and Lovely!! He's apparently making a killing in India!

That's something you may want to take up with Allah and this 'Perfect' revelation when you see Her. Let Her know she's beautiful as She is and doens't need to be, or surround Herself with, fair companions. Lots of guys down here are totally OK with dark companions. Indian girls' eyes look that much more stunning IMO

Check this out:
Al-Rahmaan (55:70) gives it to us straight
Therein the gardens will be Khairaatun‑Hisaan [fair (wives) good and beautiful]”

Fair wives SAM. Fair.

Check this out:
Rawdat al-Muhibbeen, p. 243 said that Ibn al-Qayyim said that Mohammad said that an angle said that Allah said....
They (Heaven Babes, my insert) are described as being fair and beautiful. The word khayraat (fair and good) is derived from the word khayyarah, which refers to the woman who combines all good qualities, both outward and inward, and whose physical appearance and attitude are perfect. So they are good in attitude and fair of face.

Fair of Face, that's the way Allah likes His bottom bitches.

Now, there's a thought-terminating cliche'. Bottom Bitch. Can you imagine?!? Pimps 'train' their co-workers to think that their money, is His money. And the top Bitch, is His Bottom Bitch. Once everyone is brainwashed, there's no questioning how stupid this is. Just: How can I get to be Daddy's Bottom Bitch? Getting down on the knee's 5 times a day - Dat's how Daddy like's it Hoo! Don't question. Do what Daddy's taught. Crazy world out there ... .... people using Fair and Lovely, dreaming of fair maidens, trying to make Daddy a happy pappy. See, that's what's interesting. How people don't stop to think about how stupid the whole concept of Bottom Bitch IS, but instead spend their time just trying to BE the Bottom Bitch. Wasting their life trying to make their Pimp happy and never really realizing how f*cked up in the head Pimp Daddy is. Don't worry about being Bottom Bitch baby, live yo life free.....

Did I mention the Flu? the Meds? the Dehydration? This is what happens when you rest on the couch watching South Park .... hehehe...

Last edited: Nov 9, 2010
22. ### Michael歌舞伎Valued Senior Member

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Hey what about "Military Aid". Now there's a great thought-terminating oxymoron.

23. ### Gremmie"Happiness is a warm gun"Valued Senior Member

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Military Intelligence.