The Wise and God

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by martillo, Jul 18, 2017.

  1. Kittamaru No more Staff Member

    ... what gets me is that, the part you are concerned about is not being able to tell the other side "haha, you were wrong suckers", as opposed to the thought of missing out on something more.

    I liken it to the current issue with global warming / climate change - there are five possibilities:

    A) Science is right, we take action now, and we prevent a catastrophe.
    B) Science is partially right - we take action now, but are unable to prevent a catastrophe.
    C) Science is right, but we do nothing and a catastrophe occurs.
    D) Science is wrong - we take action now, change nothing because nothing was "wrong".
    E) Science is wrong - we do nothing, and nothing happens.

    In three of those five scenarios, taking action is the right course of action. In three of those five scenarios, the "worst" that could happen is we spend some money for naught.
    However, if science IS right (and so far I've seen no compelling evidence to suggest they aren't) then by doing nothing, we are dooming ourselves.
    So, it really distills down to two choices - spend money now and potentially avert disaster, or do nothing and "hope" for the best.

    Seems like a simple choice to me, but for some reason, people get all hung up over it. An ounce of prevention vs a pound of cure (though, in both this example, and our previous "after life" discussion, there would be no time for "cure" after the fact... so an ounce of prevention is, quite literally, priceless)
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  3. Michael 345 Bali tonight Valued Senior Member

    Which is strange because living forever is precisely what god offers

    The two choices

    Live forever sitting on a cloud adoring god


    Burn in hell with all the other sinners

    Since I don't believe in anything being on the other side of death and in truth I am convinced there is no real possibility of converting anyone to becoming a non believer (and they have no chance of swinging me over) neither of us has any chance of saying ha ha ha

    But a discussion does keep my 3 neurone brain active and stops them picking Alzheimer's as a option

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    As for climate change it will or if won't and the discussion is more about the how much human polution adds to changing the climate

    Not really up to going into details so I bid you adieu

    Hope you're remaining time on Earth is all you wish for and good luck with the other side

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  5. Kittamaru No more Staff Member

    Okay, granted, I didn't think I needed to be this specific but... to clarify my previous statement:

    I have no desire to live this life forever. After all, once my body fades with old age and infirmity, I really don't want to be stuck like THAT forever

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    Be it reincarnation or eternal, joyous life in heaven, either/or is fine - an infinite lifetime stuck on this planet would be a living hell in and of itself.

    *shrug* Your choice, of course. May that it be a good one is all I hope.
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  7. Baldeee Valued Senior Member

    It seems that you are positing some form of Pascal's Wager regarding the existence of an afterlife?
    Of course, the difference between that and the issue of climate change is that only one issue is supported by actual evidence upon which to base a view/belief.
    The other is choosing simply on the basis of proposed reward, in the absence of evidence for the veracity (or otherwise) of the underlying issue.
  8. Kittamaru No more Staff Member

    Indeed, and your statement is accurate - it was simply the best comparison I could think up off the top of my head

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    I would like to pose a question to all who feel there is no "afterlife" nor God et al - just a hypothetical to satiate my own curiosity:

    If, after you died, you were to find yourself before Jesus Christ, and he asked if you would accept Him and His Grace to be permitted to enter Heaven, what would you say or do?

    Now, I should probably add to this - the whole "fire and brimstone and eternal suffering" bit of "Hell" is... well, a bit odd. From the classes I've taken at our church, this is not exactly an accurate portrayal of what happens to those who do not accept Christ/God and thus do not enter Heaven - rather, the "punishment" for non-believers is simply "being forever apart of God", never able to enter his Glory.

    That said, for an atheist... would eternally being apart from God be all that bad? In a way, it almost even fits with the reincarnation theory - if you do not "accept God", you cannot transcend Earth and enter into Heaven, and thus are simply reborn into this Hell we call life (apart from God, in a plane where disease, poverty, illness, persecution, et al are the norm)...

    I am curious, for all of our visitors who do not follow any particular faith - if, upon your passing, you were to come face to face with Christ, and He offered you the opportunity to enter Heaven, simply by accepting the gift of Grace and Forgiveness... what would you say?
  9. Michael 345 Bali tonight Valued Senior Member

    Personally I would rather come back to Earth

    The only way I would accept to go into heaven would be if god accepted my conditions

    I have a few but the MAIN one would be


    None of this

    be good and I might let you in

    That stops as soon as I set foot in heaven

    It's either

    Pick me and you must take automatically take the rest of humanity no if buts or maybes

    Don't allow me I'll go back to Earth and heaven will (in my heathen opinion) be full of self serving bastards

    I would love for that question to be put to the pope

    Would the pope say

    Not without my flock even the bad ones

    or would he be like

    Nice to meet you at last what's my job here?

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  10. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    The Bhagavad Gita addressed these questions - with excellent grammar, btw, as is so common among the wise, or at least the sane, that it has become a standard aphoristic truism: sanity is the ability to punctuate.
  11. Kittamaru No more Staff Member

    So you would argue that nobody deserves exclusion, no matter what evil seeds they may have done? An interesting position (I'd elaborate on what I mean, but it really sucks typing long posts on my phone - I'll revisit once I'm home)
  12. Baldeee Valued Senior Member

    Fair enough.
    Although one thing I find with most, if not all, attempts to analogise issues around God is that there really is nothing that can accurately convey the issue other than the actual issue.
    When I was younger my mother always told me not to get into cars with strange men offering sweets.

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    So the question would be answered with whether or not I recognised the figure before me as truly being Jesus Christ.
    I find that this is no different than telling someone who never gets a particular joke that they will never be able to find it funny, like those that don't find South Park funny.
    The "hell" part is having those that do find it funny (like me) rubbing it in your face that you "don't get it".
    But for thae person that "doesn't get it) there may simply be nothing to get, from their perspective.

    And then the whole argument arises as to whether the joke is actually objectively funny or simply a subjective matter.

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    With regard God... I'm very much of the "I don't get it" variety, and as such can't honestly same that I'm missing out on anything.
    Also, surely being reborn into anything is only meaningful if one remembers having been there before.
    If one thinks it is their first time... how does that differ from it actually being their first time?
  13. Michael 345 Bali tonight Valued Senior Member


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    Are we being bribed with sweets now?

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    And I think the below part of post seems to have moved hell away from a trip down a fire and brimstone volcano to another go on the Earth roundabout



    Although some claim to have lived before I find it strange that so many have claimed to have been "King Louie of WopWop" and not "cowboy three through the saloon doors"

    Thought bubble question

    Would they come back with the same soul or a new one?

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  14. Kittamaru No more Staff Member

    Aye, though that is the intent of the analogy in the end, insufficient thought it may have been

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    Which is a scary thought, given so many have been raised since childhood to think of Jesus as some 5'10", skinny, long haired blue eyed white guy... which is just weird, given the geographic location and ethnicity of the area (not to mention the average height of the time, and the fact that Christ was a CARPENTER, and so would have been quite muscular)

    Fair enough, and part of why I asked - it's an attempt to get a better idea of the reasoning behind belief or no belief

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    That is one of the more interesting questions, isn't it. I've had instances of memories that I don't know how or why I would have - some are incredibly detailed (such as one time I was visiting relatives in London and took a tour of the Tower of London - I'd never been there before, yet it was an utterly all-pervading feeling of deja vu, and I knew what certain rooms were and where they were despite never having (at least in my recollection) studied the Tower before. Obviously, my memory could be flawed and I may have studied it at one point... which is sort of my point - human memory is incredibly flawed like that) and others are just weird... I don't even know how to describe them, vague feelings or intuitions at best? *shrug* I've got no real explanation

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  15. Kittamaru No more Staff Member

    Well, given what we know of how human memory works, it makes sense in a way - mundane and unimportant details are readily forgotten, while something jarring/shocking/otherwise causing an emotional response are typically retained, and in far greater detail. It would seem to make sense that, theoretically, someone would remember something of historical importance far more clearly than they would "well I walked into the saloon behind two other guys and next thing I know all three of us were dead" (bad analogy but I think you see what I'm getting at).

    As to the soul question - I personally believe it would be the same soul - I've seen it hypothesized that we forget all (or nearly all) of our previous life/lives experiences because a mortal mind simply could not "hold" them all; however, upon returning to Heaven, everything is added to your collected "lifetimes" experience. It's an odd theory for sure, but in a way makes sense (if one assumes the heaven/soul/et al items to be true) - after all, I have enough trouble sometimes keeping what I did last week straight in my head, and I know I cannot recall menial things from several years ago clearly - several lifetimes of memories would just be a clustertruck in my brain XD
  16. Michael 345 Bali tonight Valued Senior Member

    So if heaven is recycling us?????

    Where do new usees come from???

    Last I heard Earth population will be 7.5 billion soon

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  17. gmilam Valued Senior Member

    Define "accept".
    I was taught that the wages of sin is death (Romans) and the dead are conscious of nothing at all (Ecclesiastes). Therefore the idea of an immortal soul is bogus.
  18. Kittamaru No more Staff Member

    Definition of accept
    1. transitive verb
    2. 1a : to receive (something offered) willingly accept a giftb : to be able or designed to take or hold (something applied or added) a surface that will not accept ink

    3. 2: to give admittance or approval to accept her as one of the group

    4. 3a : to endure without protest or reaction accept poor living conditionsb : to regard as proper, normal, or inevitable an idea that is widely acceptedc : to recognize as true : believe refused to accept the explanation

    5. 4a : to make a favorable response to accept an offerb : to agree to undertake (a responsibility) accept a job

    6. 5: to assume an obligation to pay; also : to take in payment we don't accept personal checks

    7. 6of a deliberative body : to receive (a legislative report) officially

    Ecclesiastes, if you interpret it that way, leaves some rather odd problems to try and reconcile:
    Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7).
    All go unto one place; for all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again (Ecclesiastes 3:20).

    My understanding is that they are speaking of the Body, not the Soul, as evidenced in the next verse:
    Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward? (Ecclesiastes 3:21).

    Then, the New Testament has a few things that would seem to indicate otherwise:
    Citation -
    And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose (Matthew 27:52).

    Please notice how the Holy Spirit says that the “bodies” slept. Jesus said:

    Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep . . . Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead (John 11:11, 14).


    Think for a moment of our Lord’s last words as He hung dying upon the Cross. He said: “Father, into Thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, He gave up the ghost” (Luke 23:46).

    Thus, it would seem that the quotes you reference in the Old Testament are referring particularly to the Body.

    As for the Wage of Sin being Death - you cut the verse short...
    New Living Translation
    For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.

    It helps to take the context of the entire chapter:
    It reads to me as though Jesus is saying not that "anyone who sins simply dies" and that's the end, but rather that it is BECAUSE we are all sinful by nature that this gift of Grace was given, and as a result we are all given the opportunity to enter Heaven, if we simply accept it.
  19. Michael 345 Bali tonight Valued Senior Member

    Irreverent but are the wages taxed???

    On a more serious note

    20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the obligation to do right.


    22 But now you are free from the power of sin and have become slaves of God. Now you do those things that lead to holiness and result in eternal life

    Number of points

    Seems like you can change from being a slave to sin with no obligations to do right

    (but can do right if you wish)

    which I take to be free will


    being a slave to god which appears to restrict you to only doing good

    ie no free will

    In both senerios you are a slave

    Slaves to sin go to hell and, can we presume, keep their free will

    Slaves to god can only do good hence free will flys out of the window on its cherub wings

    New Living Translation

    Is this number

    1 million 265 thousand 137 hundred and 64 version

    a translation? or

    a reinterpretation?

    By living I take it they mean active meaning evolving yes???

    Sounds more jazzy to call it

    New Living Translation

    than this translation is

    The Last One Take it or Leave it Translation the Subject is now Dead as per Monty Python Parrot Dead

    Sorry I do try to be serious but I think I am deformed in that my funny bone is in my typing index finger right hand and not in my elbow

    Sent from my Android Huawei Rio - L02 Saturday 22nd July 2017 02:20am

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    PS there are infinite ways to do bad

    How many ways are there to do good?


    Your doing good

    That's it


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    Last edited: Jul 21, 2017
  20. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

    _ Wise, about life… Too much bad things happen…

    How many bad things should happen, for it to be acceptable?

    _ Seems this is a wrong kind of life. Our World seems to be fortuitous. Is not as it was supposed a World and life would be.

    How is the world supposed to be?
    And. How does anyone come to that conclusion?

    _ Seems there was a problem in the Creation of the Universe which would have badly affected everything even God someway. The things are not as they should be.

    Again. How should they be?

    _ But God would have all power to solve anything... What would be missing to solve the things?

    If it is known, or believed that world isn't as it should be, and there was a problem that even affected God, despite God having all power. You shouldn't need to ask this question, as what is claimed to be known, seems far more complex and difficult than merely solving the problems of the world.

    _ Nobody knows God's situation. There's no way to communicate with God. Who knows...

    God, knows God's situation. So it can be known if we desire to know.

    _ One thing is true, if there is a God with a creation he must have a way to perceive it.

    If God is the creator, and and created beings are naturally endowed with perceptive abilities, then it stand to reason that God has (at the very least) the same perception as His creation.

    May be through our own eyes and ears. So God could observe us and may be someone could imagine something useful for God to solve it all. That’s what I think... But maybe is just a matter of time...

    This accepts that God is the creator, has access to all power. Now it it suggest that maybe God, by Himself, lacks the ability to perform like His creation (life).

    I don't think it is wise at all. To be honest I find it a little childish. Unfortunately not in the good way.

  21. Kittamaru No more Staff Member


    Michael -

    No offense, but your paragraph layout... it really is difficult to read through and follow as it gets longer (all the extra spaces and such). Just a heads up that it makes things difficult to follow.

    In this instance, I do not think they are using "slave" in the literal sense, in that you can only do that thing - rather metaphorically. Of course, I am no religious scholar, so I could be mistaken.

    As for ways to "do good" - there are many ways and things one can do that are "good" - one of the most important is to love one another as yourself.
  22. Michael 345 Bali tonight Valued Senior Member

    My apologies if you find my layout causes reading problems
    The layout I use is supposed to increase and assist in highlighting the salient points
    A sort of bullet point layout
    The spacing allows (requires) reading to be slowed which gives the brain a few extra micro seconds to absorb ideas before moving onto the next
    A continuous long paragraph tends to speed up reading and salient points missed in the rush to get to the end
    It's a sort of style of punctuation which you may have noticed I use sparsely
    Hope that helps explain the reason for the style

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  23. gmilam Valued Senior Member

    All "Devil's advocacy" aside... if I was dead and found myself conscious and in front of Jesus - I would of course listen to him and question my current beliefs. It's kind of hard not to believe in an afterlife if you are dead but yet still conscious. (After discounting hallucinations - etc.) But I would have to ask him, "Why all the mystery and head games?"

    But, I currently have no reason to even entertain the idea.

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