The Under Class, what do we do with them?

Nietzschefan, I set you up bro and you fell for it. You took the bait and ran with it. I do not work for Oracle.

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Do you think I would tell you such information in such a public setting...wrong. But I did it for a reason,
you let your passion flow without limations...a dangerous habit my friend. Hopefully in the future you will be more skeptical of information you accept as true.

It seems to me in this case your critical thinking is bound by predjudice. I ask you to try to see past the ties of preconcieved ideas and evalutate each idea openly and honestly with a mind for finding and understanding the truth.

 

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So very, very few people realize that. We've created a society based on elitism and ego-centricism ....and it's getting worse and worse.

Baron Max

 

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This is not about one wanting to live a humble existance. There is no harm in that. And certianly at this time we have a demand for labor at all levels. What I am saying is that there is a large and growing segment of the United States labor force that is unable to sustain itself because it lacks ethics and skills that is why corporations are running overseas for labor. Because not only can they get better labor, they can get it at a lower overall cost.

I raise this issue because it is a signficant issue for American global competitiveness and for the world economy.

 

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Baron for the last time (hopefully) it is not about class but about ethics and skills found in American labor, at the lower wage level of the work force. I used the term underclass to describe these individuals because their lack of ethics and skill combine to put them at signficant disadvantage in the work force.

 

Seems so easy for you to say that, yet you've consistently shown that it's not how you actually feel about those people.

No, you've used the word in a derogatory manner throughout this thread.

You've also consistently ignored the fact that many of the "underclass" are prefectly happy doing what they're doing. You've also consistently ignored the fact that a great many of them could change if they wanted to change ...yet they don't!

Sorry, Joe, but you're just an elitist trying to pretend to help ...probably in order to make you seem less elitist in the eyes of the forum members.

Baron Max

 

Well Baron your response does not suprise me. You have shown yourself to be a very immature individual not capable of looking at issues openly and honestly and conducting rational discourse. You have repeatedly constructed straw man arguements to support your position and engaged in inflamatory discourse.

So go a head continue to use your blinders and when the world slaps you in the face, don't come crying at my doorstep.

 

But you've just shown that you're compassionate and giving. Surely if I come to your doorstep, you'll share of your bounty, won't you? ...all I have to do is come up with a good sob-story about how the society has kept me down and out all these years.

Baron Max

 

What do we do with those who live lives of luxury off the work of others?
1111

 

Well maybe Baron, just for you but nobody else. I would not want to soil my heartless image.

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I think the question could be better constructed by asking what do we do with those with wealth who have not earned it? That applies to active CEOs as well as those who inherit wealth.

History his replete with examples of incompetent CEOs who have walked off with millions without earning it. Corporate America is in need of reform, of that there is no question. Corporate control needs to be more open to stockholders. In theory stockholders own and control companies. In practice it is the CEO who holds all the cards. It is he/she who appoints the board. It is he/she who composes the ballot. That is too much power centered in one place. Corporations, investors, and society would be much better with more competent CEOs leading the engines of our economy.

 

WHAT SHORTY SAID. Those jobs are not simply paid laziness as you seem to think.
Everyone contributes to society, including those who work in fast food. (at least, they've saved me from severe sugar crashes while I'm out,

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).
I think YOU'RE a worthless under-human who deserves to die. NOT the ones you are describing.

 

Oh no Baron Max, there's a wizkid right now who's already made a $50 robot that is powered simply by directly shitting in it's mouth in-between it's Mantra of "Yess SIR" and "Right AWAY MAA'AM"s.

The low life's of the world are totally screwed.

 

OMG Joe! You GOT me, you made me go slightly off topic (as absolutely LAME as your topic is). You are such a hero. Everyone here is absolutely saying "Yup Joe totally wtfpawzd Nietz there"...for sure man.

 

Hey Ophiolite, sure I've got a bad attitude from my experiences within corporations. There ARE some corporations that actually stick to their "Ethics & integrity policy". My own (yes empirical) experience is, that shit rolls downhill in corporations, there is no "buck stops here" and the only way to get ahead is to avoid problems, rather than solving them. To create a group of people whom you trust and they trust you and stick together. It is a natural reaction to accumulate power in this way, when it IS the prevailing attitude and hardly even hidden even among the top positions.

I think we can easily see this from so many corporations in financial difficulties, solely from the actions of a few individuals within them. It did not stop ( or start) with places like Enron.

 

Nietzschefan,
you may be correct. I have worked for half a dozen large corporations, though only two companies. (That's what take overs and sell-offs will do to you.) I have seen definite evidence of the type of thing you speak of. I have also seen dedicated individuals, from the top down to the bottom, who have been committed to doing a great job, supporting their colleagues, delivering an outstanding service to their customers and value to their shareholders. It's my experience that there are assholes and angels in every walk and level of life. But maybe I'm just an optimist.

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Yes, and what I'm saying is that these people can't be helped out of their problem. Indeed, if anything, their problem is too much help. As Ben Franklin said:

I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer. ​

And Desi was sort of making the same point:

I've always been driven, driven to succeed at whatever I do. Be it working at Seven-Eleven, at a factory, a lumberyard, or whatever. But many people just don't have that drive. They simply wish to do the very least possible they can without being fired. If they can get SSI and sell a little pot on the side, they're happy.

People who just need some money to go to school you can help. People in trouble with their finances due to an unexpected health problem, you can help. But you can't help someone who doesn't want your help. Someone who's happy living at or below the poverty line, or at least happy enough that he's not willing to exert any effort to improve his situation. Those are the types who require "tough love", that is, less help. They must be made to stand on their own two feet and perhaps learn some self respect in the process.

I've lived below the poverty line. Many of the people living in poverty at any one time are people in transition. Students, people looking for jobs, recent immigrants, artists, musicians, etc. How many people do you know that have a degree in something, but are working at some other crap job until they can find one in their actual field? Joe is talking about people that never climb out of poverty and seem to forever wallow in dead end, low paying jobs and public assistance.

And, just for fun, here's another Ben Franklin quote I came across:

Those who beat swords into plowshares usually end up plowing for those who don't. ​

 

I've worked with and as 'under class' group, as well as supervising 'under class' group. I think that the greater your wage/ position/ responsibility/ risk is, the bigger your sense of job possession/ appreciation/ work ethic . Sorry for the incorrect grammar over here, may someone point it out for me.

Let's take extreme examples of a cleaning service worker (worker A) and a 'high class' worker (worker B). In the ethic of coming on time, A might not be as careful as B, because the risk that A faced (losing his low wage job) is not as big as risk that B faced (losing trust of partner or valuable client). There is less incentive for A for being on time than for B.

In stealing. If A steal and lose his job, he might be able to get same job as easy, while if B lose his job, he might lose everything that he built for long.

You said that illegal worker have better ethic. It might be because the risk that the illegal worker facing are bigger than the non-illegal one. They have less opportunity because of their status, and so they appreciate their job better. They will work hard and save cent by cent because this cents has greater value in their home country.

How to tackle this problem, you ask? One solution might be by giving higher wages than others. By giving higher wages, chances that you get the one that will stick to their job longer will be bigger.

 

Well I have to agree with you Mad. I have found the best employees at this end of the wage scale are the students (especially high school); those fallen on hard times through not fault of their own; immigrants; those in transition.

Obama is going to have to deal with the issue of American competitiveness. And this is a big factor in labor competitiveness. It will be interesting to see how he deals with the issue. It is not an easy issue as you point out. It is hard to help those who don't want to change.

I am thinking mandatory public service with something similar to bootcamp. Military training, especially boot camp, can be a life changing experience for some.

 

Great solution insomnia. Now how much are you willing to pay for a burger and fries in order to pay that higher wage to the worker? Instead of $5 for a value meal, would you pay $10 so the employer could pay the higher salary?

 

To set the salary of your workers obviously you need to know all your marginal costs, so that you can set the same price of the food.