The U.S. Economy: Stand by for more worse news

Discussion in 'Business & Economics' started by Brian Foley, Nov 28, 2010.

  1. Carcano Valued Senior Member

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  3. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks, but there is no indication there I could find that oil income is used for paying pensions to people retiring etc. There is some discussion that because oil income is so large compared to the number of Norwegians that perhaps (but not yet) some oil income should be used for government costs.

    Here is what I found on Norwegian pension:
    I.e. the Norwegian pension system is set up, just like the US Social Security system is - current workers, not the oil income, supports the retired.
    I don´t think that is the way most Norwegians look at it. Instead they think, God or nature gave Norway wealth as hydrocarbons and now the current generation is diversifying that wealth into many different assets (investments) and helping meet energy needs at lower cost for people all over the world. Most Norwegian, I think, would consider it immoral to use it for the current generation to live well with less work. The wealth belongs to all Norwegians, especially those not yet born, not to the current generation.
     
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  5. Carcano Valued Senior Member

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    If its officially called a PENSION fund its reasonably to assume that its being used to fund pensions. :bugeye:
     
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  7. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    That would be your false assumption. It has had different names, but mainly is now called the "oil fund" by the people. From your link: " The fund changed name in January 2006 from its previous name The Petroleum Fund of Norway. The fund is commonly referred to as The Oil Fund (Norwegian: Oljefondet)."

    It is NOT used to pay pensions! Never has been, and is not likely to ever be used that way. Quite possibly it will some day build universities, hospitals etc. and not only in Norway! Norway, long before the oil was discovered has been one of the most generous givers to worthy causes on a per capita basis in the world. - For example, Norway payed for the construction of the UN security chambers and has lead many global efforts to reduce hunger, make peace, improve health, medical research, etc.

    Norwegians are not likely to think well of any suggestion that this natural wealth be used so they can live well with less work as it belongs to all Norwegian, especially those not yet born, if not to all mankind.
     
  8. LaurieAG Registered Senior Member

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    You are probably thinking of something like Australia's 'Future Fund' made up from the sale of public assets.

    It is currently being used to create a quasi governmented monopoly (after they sold the last one??) National Broadband Network that will be sold and used to pay for public service pensions, after the copper network is dismantled. Pity the bloody thing doesn't give broadband during a blackout and phone access dies when your backup batteries go. We've been sold a real pup on this one.
     
  9. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    I don't disagree with you there. And why would anyone WANT to educate themselves when stealing from their neighbors is so much easier?

    Why study?
    I mean, why bother?

    And what happens to Norway when their investments are "Nationalized" and "repatriated" to the country these investments are made in? What happens to Norway when a new "Patriot Tax X: A A Greed Tax on Greedy Rich Norsemen and their Greedy Corrupt Greedy Sovereignty Wealth Fund". We'll put the tax at 99%.

    If you think stealing from your own children is easy, imagine oh how much easier it is to steal from someone else's (particularly when selling such demagoguery to the electorate).

    Today's electorate confuse investment with stealing. I heard an Americans saying how they 'deserve' more help 'from the Government'. I mean "we're doing all the shopping round here... keeping the economy afloat!!!"

    Norway's investment can just as easily be painted as Norway's stealing. I mean, that is what the rich do, they steal. The poor OTOH... gee, they're doing all the shopping. All the watching commercials on TV and other forms of work.


    I do hope the Norsemen invest a bit in gold and silver...... I think their German cousins are wishing they had kept their's in Germany.

    Well, to be Honoest WE used to share this culture. Asians in general still do.


    Is this as case of absence of evidence is not evidence of absence?
    I'll link a video except on the very first recorded Libertarian. You may have heard of him - he's quite famous.... In China

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    Sure, we didn't see a Slavery free society for a very long time as well. But, once the current generations gets used to the concept the forcing people to Slave is immoral - it's really hard to turn back the clock.

    Under the current state of affairs, I agree. I'm simply making the argument it could (and some day will) be much better.


    Think of it like this: Why don't we share the Grades around the class? Why do we reward a student with an "A" and another with a "C"? Why not give them both "B"? Wouldn't that be much fairer? I mean, if you think about it, that A student..... they use the roads!... errr desks!

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    I bet if you asked for a vote: You'll find most student would indeed like to see those A's shared around the class.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2012
  10. Carcano Valued Senior Member

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    This is actually a very serious point Michael makes here. Keynesian economists and politicians actually believe that the wealth of nations is driven by consumption.

    The truth is that 'needs' always exist and 'wants' are infinite.

    What they both depend on for satisfaction is production...the great variable.
     
  11. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, and that is why usually a free market is better than a planned economy for satisfying "wants"

    Part of the USSR´s problems was that they produced things in excess that few wanted and too little of things that people both needed and wanted at times (You know things like toilet paper were often in very short in supply, while a 20 year supply of that old wide folding computer printer paper was sitting in warehouses. etc.)
     
  12. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    today I got more hard facts (not just from my memory):
    Again, I note the benefits of giving all voters a good education - Scandinavians don´t vote for politicians who promise "goodies for you now & big debts for the next generation" as US´s poorly educated masses do.

    Poor education of the masses is at the root of all of the US´s problems. We need Federal funding of schools, higher taxes on the rich, so we could be more like any Scandinavian country. Norway is not, like all the other oil producers, using its oil wealth for just the current generation and is not significantly different from the other Scandinavian countries, which lack oil wealth.

    The bad news you´r standing by for is that US will never be as well run as Norway is because it is a country run by money for the benefit of of the rich, by their lobbyist and for their corporations, not "of the people, by the people and for the people." The rich, mainly thru their PACs, spent 6 Billion dollars to elect Congress they can control for their benefit in the recent election. Why the IRS code fills 73,000 pages, etc. Nothing will change until the people are as well educated as Scandinavians are. Most Americans are lambs easily lead by the TV ads as they cannot think for themselves.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 23, 2012
  13. RealityCheck Banned Banned

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    Since most people nowadays have all sorts of routers and other 'appliances' as part of the phone system, all these need in-home power and the miniscule power from the current exchange via copper is not much use for these. Plus many have mobile phones for just receiving/making telephone calls in emergency situations anywhere they happen to be, and not just at home, where the phone connection on the wall is mostly used for internet and phone calls via skype etc.

    It is a diminshing requirement to have the exchange ALSO provide the power, since this not only causes 'electrolysis' degradation reactions and creates much operating/maintenance/repair costs, but the trade-off for losing the copper cable, and its power from the exchange, is that the NBN broadband network will be more reliable and less problematic overall, with the added bonus of first class broadband to practically everyone in Oz.

    Not getting miniscule power from the exchange is a small price to pay for all the benefits accruing by switching to fibre optics to the home! And it is not beyond solution to have some sort of constant 'topping up' battery-charging connection to mains power for your phone system/line only. Some sort of charger plug-in to the nearest power socket permanently in place for the phone-only part?

    By the way, do I understand correctly that in the USA there is NO power from the exchange even over the copper cable network all this time? Please someone correct me there if I recall incorrectly.

    Cheers.
     
  14. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    I personally would like to see less lord of the flies public schooling and more at home education. Resource wise, you're never going to get the sort of attention in a classroom that a tutor or your mother or father can give to you on a one-on-one bases. Not to mention that your parent will always have more invested in you getting a good education than some stranger.

    I'd also mention, there are millions and millions of undergraduates and even now graduates that simply can not get a job in their field. Not for lack of 'Public Education' (many have gone through private schools and Ivy League Universities) its a problem again with the culture. Everyone wants to be a worker.

    The thing is, Scandinavian countries, are relatively homogeneous. Some have religious taxes (Germany does as an example). Germany has a great educational system. And their Chancellor recently called multiculturalism a failure. A few different Swedes I know have said Stockholm has turned into a violent crap-hole. A lot of Swedes now wish they hadn't taken in so many refugees.

    The problems are not due to lack of resources or good food, or excellent public education, health, etc.... but for lack of Scandinavian culture.

    I suppose my point is we are not the same culture and the problems we face are not going to be fixed by having more access to publicly funded education. The internet allows pretty much everyone the opportunity to access any information they'd like. There are literally 10s of millions educational sites, most Universities post all lectures up for free (MIT, Stanford, etc....) and yet the common person seems to be even more ignorant than ever.

    Valuing education starts and ends in the home. Which is why Berkeley had a 3% Asian student population when race was a factor in who was admitted and the year after race was omitted the population went to 40%. Jews make up way WAY more Professional positions compared with how many Americans are actually Jewish.


    I personally think most of the private social organizations that are needed to see us through this mess have long withered away as the State took over more and more of these social roles (See: Public Education) - and it isn't going to get any smaller anytime too soon. Well, not until there's a major crises (did you know OWS actually got food to people quicker than the State did after the last hurricane? I recall how some people were taking the piss out of all these 'prepers' well, you can see who was laughing last).

    If we should have a 'real' crises..... then what? Think New Orleans times 1000. What exactly does a society do when there are no social organizations to pick up the slack and the State is as incompetent as ours do? For the Egyptians it seems they're 'electing' another Dictator. I wonder what we'll so... It'll be interesting to find out.
     
  15. LaurieAG Registered Senior Member

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    The ring tone is low amperage AC and the voice part (analogue or digital) operates via 28-50v DC on copper ADSL etc (phone wires) fed by a bank of batteries at the exchange. One gave you a belt while the other was more like a wasp sting.

    I also worked on exchange cutovers and emergency co-axial (national trunk/junctions in Australia) cutovers and work had to be coordinated very carefully on main coax lines due to the high voltage.
     
  16. nietzschefan Thread Killer Valued Senior Member

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    Just wanted to thank Billy - his advice has helped me build a fundamental nest egg using the precious metals and rare earth etfs.
     
  17. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Glad to have helped but note that the rare earths are not rare - huge potentially commercial deposits are known. What is more rare about them is that the "EPAs" of few governments will permit them to be economically refined from the ores, which contain a lot of radioactive Thorium (if memory servers me correctly). Why the REs of Australia are shipped to some SW Asian country for processing.
     
  18. nietzschefan Thread Killer Valued Senior Member

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    Interesting ... don't really play with rare earths anymore (just a couple speculative stocks)...but they sure paid out a couple years ago. I prefer the predictability of precious metals these days.
     
  19. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    No Santa Claus Rally in 2012?
    I sort of feel sorry for Boehner. He´s between rock and hard place. If he gives in, the tea party and other right wingers who "took the pledge" (No tax increase) will bolt. If he does not agree to tax reductions for 98% of Americans, holding out for it to be 100% of all Americans and US plunges back into recession, that is the end of the Republican party in two years (Terrible defeat in next election almost certain.)
     
  20. andy1033 Truth Seeker Valued Senior Member

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    You lot in america should only care about who is going to give you more free mobile phones, lol.

    Have they budgeted for the provision, to supply mobile phones to the whole world yet, lol
     
  21. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    You´r not American, but as payment for the laughs we gave you, we will make you a non-resident one, and send you a tax bill. I´m an American but resident of Brazil and know that then it can be for a lot of bucks. - Thats bucks, not yucks. - you got them already. Where do you live? -We need to know where to send the bill.
     
  22. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    you mean the guy that wasn't a libertarian at all just your precious mises institute grasping at straws to validate an unscientific economic throery based on platitudes and wishful thinking rather than on anything resembling scientific methodology.


    not to mention that Taoism is nothing at all like libertarianism. yes both are anti authortarist but the similarities end there. Libertarianism is a modern day hedonistic viewpoint. its all about satisfying ones desires while at its core; whereas Taoism is all about the rejection of one's desires. this is just another attempt at libertarians trying to disort history and the like to suit their own ends. out of all the faiths and philosophies in the world libertarianism comes closest to wicca not Taoism.
     
  23. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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