The True Purpose of Capitalism

Can you please elaborate on that thought, dixonmassey?
In Brazil, alcohol is widely used. It doesn't seem as hard as you are trying to convey.

 

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As I said, it doesn't take a genius to transform other forms of energy into alcohol (as Brazil does). It does take a genius (or two) to create "closed loop" alcohol energy system. In other words, just sun + machinery + labor + raw materials (other than oil, etc.) + soil. Well, it's going to be almost "closed loop", because lots of fossil energy needs to be released to create machinery. But let's not be so stringent.

As a first step, the simplest go - no go experiment should be performed. 30 years of talking about alcohol and getting funded, no time for the common sense stuff.

Here it's: (maybe some sciforums members can try?

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Cause I have no means for time being

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)

Purchase 20 lbs of corn, make the simplest moonshine apparatus (using either natural gas or liquid burner). Split 20 lbs in half, ferment first part (using any energy source available), distill mash (using any energy source available), distill primary distillate (using any energy source available). Collect and measure alcohol "spoil". Take the second 10lbs part, fuel liquid burner with alcohol from experiment numero 1, ferment, distill, distill again (using alcohol obtained from exp. #1 only). If by any chance some alcohol from exp.#1 will be left, measure remainder. It's going to be a crude estimate of energy efficiency of alcohol (if any). If any alcohol from exp #1 will be left, one can proceed with estimates&experiments on how much alcohol it takes to grow that corn.

Excuse that conditions of experiment are too crude, large energy losses, etc., etc. are not accepted.

 

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the simplest, bullet proof experiment would be buying an alcohol plant working on liquid fuel (there should be one or two in the world left), fueling its tanks with alcohol; and comparing how much alcohol is being distilled per liter of burnt alcohol. Simple. Never done. I suspect I know why.

 

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It's my understanding that given the US demand for energy, alchohol cannot replace gasoline, as there isn't enough land in the US to grow enough to get the same energy out. Don't remember where I read it, I think scientific american. It was something like 1/2 the land in america to replace 40% of the demand or something ridiculous like that.

 

I have the impression you have more then enough cattle and cattle related land usage....

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Please illustrate the transform of oil, or electricity, or coal into alcohol.

True, alcohol, like hydrogen and electricity is not an energy source. Some other source must generate them. Alcohol is most economically produced by growing cane in tropical countries and of course solar energy is the source.
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#I am sure it is true that experimental studies are lacking. The claim is so stupid that none would be undertaken. I might also observe tha no experimental studies have disproven that the moon is made of green cheeze! Alcohol is clearly a viable energy source and the moon is clearly not made of green cheeze. No studies required.

This also reflects great ignorance. In Brazil the production in BILLIONS OF LITERS has been:

11.41 in 2001/2 ...(Our summer is your winter. Although cane grows all year
12.40 in 2002/3.....the main harvest is in December and January - hence the 1/2 etc.)
14.66 in 2003/4
15.15 in 2004/5
Ref: Folio de Sao Paulo, 1 March 2006, page B4.

In 2002 Brazil exported 300 million liters of alcohol.
In 2005 Brazil exported 2.4 billion liters of alcohol. Japan has recently signed contracts to buy much more to solve (partially) the polution problems in Tokyo. Soon you to will be able to buy Japanese cars powered by alcohol. (Alcohol powered cars have been used in Brazil for 30 years. For the last 4 years, cars that can burn any mixture of gas/alcohol have been sold in Brazil and now represent 81% of all new cars sold.*)

Your other post spoke of burning alcohol for the distilation. This also reflects your astounding ignorgance. Some of the crushed cane is burned for this purpose but only a fraction of the cane is required. The remainer is feed to cattle or at some of the larger distilation facilities, all is burned to produce electricity.

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*Because the price of sugar is at a 25 year high (approximately 16cents per pound) the owners of these cars (at least until the presidential election in October) are now finding that alcohol is no longer much, if any, cheaper than gas. The government controls PetroBras and is not letting it raise the price of gasoline to fully reflect the higher cost of oil. Brazil is a net exporter of oil, in part because so many cars run on alcohol, and can sell gas locally at less than it fair market value. (This will change after the election as the government needs the money.)

 

If you are using oil, gas, etc. to distill alcohol, you are transforming energy of oil, etc. into alcohol. Pure and simple. Nobody proved that such a transform is energetically (not financially) is a winner. Things that have financial sense (considering current prices of oil, labor, etc.), as in the case of Brazil's alcohol, are not necessarily have energy sense. Money (capital) have no long term value, fossil energy and soil fertility do.

Well, that quite an argument (I dropped epithets). Nobody proved that alcohol is an energy winner, but alcohol is clearly a viable energy source... That's even not funny, that's .... If you would add, "a viable energy source for limited applications" that would be OK. For limited applications pesky energy balance concerns don't matter much.

What the heck does it prove? that it makes financial sense to distill lots of alcohol in Brazil? To the hell is with that; that financial crap is meaningless. It took great sense for Nazi Germany to make liquid fuel from coal, so energy balances of a process didn't matter much. It's peacetime, whether alcohol is energy loser or winner matters a lot for the mankind. Whether alcohol is $winner or $loser doesn't matter at all.

have Brazil developed process to distill alcohol with zero energy input from oil, electricity, gas, etc.? If not, those little things like burning cane, etc., as soothing they are for believers, don't matter much in the great scheme of things.

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What if labor costs will double? As I said, economics of alcohol production is meaningless for the future because it depends on the volatile prices of commodities, raw materials, etc.

 

Alcohol is at least a renewable resource; if the biotic theory holds, oil ain't.

 

Can you not read? I clearly stated that the distilation heat is supplied by burning part of the crushed cane. No one would use any other source. The crushed cane is there, free and must be removed some way.

You continue to agrue /think that production of alcohol requires fossil energy, even more than the yield in "alcohol energy." This is ignorant nonsense! The only fossil energy input is for the trucks that bring the cane to the alcohol production facility and the tank trucks that then haul the alcohol to the "gas" stations. For gasoline distribution, the hauling distance is typically much greater, because there are many more alcohol distilation plants, near the cane fields, than refineries. (At least 200 times more in Brazil.) Thus, the fossil fuel used to distibute gasoline is much greater than for the distribution of alcohol because it is hauled much farther on average.

Your nonsense agrument proving alcohol is not a positive energy system would "prove" that gasoline is a worse negative energy source as the energy used in transport of it is much greater than for alcohol distribution. - The ONLY fossil energy used in the alcohol system is for transport. The gasoline refinery also uses fossil energy in the production of gasoline from crude oil, and to bring the crude oil half way round the world in some cases, but the distilation of alcohol is only by solar energy captured by the sugar cane and the average transport distance is less than 150 miles. (Where is the gasoline refinery nearest to you? Where did the oil come from? How far did the oil need to travel? Stop your nonsense!)

As far as "limited applications" is concerned - the current procuction of alcohol in Brazil would provide more than required for ALL cars in US to run on "gasahol," which is only 15% alcohol. It would improve performance, clean the air, and be cheaper. You are just very miss-informed/ ignorant of the facts.

 

Capitalism = wage slavery through "freedom." And you bought it! LOL

 

It IS wage slavery if you are not an enterpreneur!

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It is fun to be an enterpreneur. It is fun to create. Unfortunately, that's not what the school system rewards!

 

Then you are a slave driver.

 

Not if you don't hire people...

 

Then you are a slave.

 

No you are not a slave if you do your own thing.

 

'making money to survive' is your thing?

 

Nope

 

You are going to be an entrepeneur so you can lose money?

 

Only those that are not well prepared lose money.
And no, I'm not going for it just to survive.

 

Cane stalks must be REMAINED or reintroduced to the field, if one don't wish to resort to the ancient slash and burn kind of agriculture. Even then, significant amount of mineral fertilizers must be introduced to keep soil fertility from abrupt degradation. Sugar cane exhausts soil of nutrients fast.

Another thing that there are lots of poor folks in Brazil. Thus, cheap human muscle power can be used to cut, dry, transport, etc. cane. This significantly boosts marginal or nonexistent energy efficiency of alcohol.

I think that transformation of poor folks muscle power into alchohol could be more viable solution than any sci fi breakthrough.

Really? Again, large number of poor folks in Brazil available to work cheap instead of machines may skew your prospective on alcohol energy efficiency somewhat. However, you simply don't want to think about all those energy inputs going into alcohol production. In the USA, corn alcohol is roughly triple energy loser because of the enourmous amount of fossils used to grow corn. Granted, sugar cane is more suitable plant for alcohol production than corn, Brazil's agriculture is far less mechanized. Thus, Brazilian efficiency numbers could be better. However, better doesn't mean "energy winner". There is not a shred of evidence that Brazilian alchohol is a sustainable energy winner.

You've forgotten about lots of "energy inputs". I will name just a few. Machinery for alcohol plants, trucks, equipment, roads, fertilizers, food... All those things require lots of fossils to be built/manufactured/maintained. Add there soil erosion&degradation, destuction of remaining wildlife habitats, which is inevitable considering Brazilian agricultural practices.

That's somewhat confusing logic. As far as I know, sugar cane growing is largerly concentrated in a fairly small area of Brazil. Or it's different today, and a still is on every corner? Even if it's so, transport considerations are irrelevant. Before transporting anything that anything (alcohol or gasoline) should be (ideally speaking) a sustainable energy winner already. If transport expenditures will tip the energy balance, probably that thing should not be transported/manufactured on the grand scale. Keep in mind that energy density of alcohol is roughly 30% less than that of gasoline.

Again something very confusing. Energy needed to distribute alcohol should be quite commensurable with that to distribute gasoline. Your theorizing about comparable lengths of gasoline/alcohol distributing networks, even if it's correct, doesn't change that parity much. Again keep in mind, alchohol is less energy dense = more alcohol needs to be burned to transport X tonnes of alcohol/mile. Energy content of transported X tonnes of alcohol is less than that of an equivalent amount of gasoline = more alcohol needs to be transported. Consider those things in your scrupulous networking reflections.

Not true. See above.

Yes, it uses lots of fossil energy. However, there are quite exact estimates on energy efficiency of refinery process. There are solid data on "how many barrels of oil needs to be burned to produce X amount of gasoline". One can compare the energy content of the burnt oil and that of the produced gasoline. One can make definite conclusion that gasoline is not an energy loser. Alcohol crowd didn't come up with anything coming close to that exactness.

Conversion of oil into gasoline doesn't destroy soils and jungles too.

Still on every corner? Hard to believe, but maybe.

It could travel from far away, but it's an energy source (winner). There are great doubts whether alchohol stored on the premises of a still is an energy winner, that's the problem.