The True Origin of The Universe?

Discussion in 'Astronomy, Exobiology, & Cosmology' started by dumbest man on earth, Jun 9, 2014.

  1. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    https://in.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120120072515AAZXAjd


    "Does nuclear fission occurs inside stars ?"

    Actually fission is almost impossible in stars. If you start learning about atomic physics, you will learn about something known as binding energy. This is the energy that an atom uses to hold itself together (and by itself I'm mainly referring to the nucleus).

    If you look at fusion processes, such as those that occur inside the sun, you see that multiple atoms will come together and fuse producing a new, heavier atom. Now if you look at the total binding energy for all the lighter atoms, it will be greater than the binding energy of the resulting atom. This means the resulting atom has less energy than the atoms that made it. That extra energy is what is released in the form of photons (and a few other things). The problem is, you can only fuse up to Iron. After than the fused atom with always have more binding energy that the atoms that made it and so it requires extra energy. In this way, stars cannot fuse anything higher than Iron without losing energy and collapsing in on themselves.

    For the same reason, fission cannot occur inside stars. When an atom fissures it breaks from one atom into 2 or more. In a normal fission process you will see that the binding energy of the original atom is greater than the sum of the new atoms. This means that a bit of extra energy was able to be released (again in the form of photons and some other stuff). However, if you start looking at atoms below Iron, you'll see that if that atoms breaks apart, it has a higher binding energy than the atoms it breaks into. This means fission requires an energy input if the element that fissures is below Iron.

    So overall, stars do not perform processes that require energy input. As such they cannot fuse elements greater than Iron, and they cannot fissure elements lower than Iron. Because stars have almost no elements greater than Iron (most stars are 99% helium and hydrogen) there is nothing there to fissure.
    Source:
    Astrophysics Degree:
    """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""Simply put the main differences between nuclear fission and fusion is that nuclear fusion requires heat imput [hence a nuclear fission bomb trigger in a thermonuclear weapon or Hydrogen bomb] and fission does not require heat.

    Hence fission does not take place within a star.
     
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  3. humbleteleskop Banned Banned

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    Yahoo Answers? Awwww. You can of course believe in anyone's opinion, but as long as it is not your own you will have no clue what are you really talking about, and it shows. We were not talking about ordinary stars, we were talking about neutron rich environment, like neutron stars and supernovas. In the future, pay more attention please.
     
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  5. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    I've lost track actually what all this is about. From memory rivers and the 'scope promoting "think for yourself and Ignore the giant of the past" brigade arguing against the the fact that eventually stars will not form anymore as hydrogen literally runs out.

    Common sense and nuclear physics of course dictates that to be a factual claim.
     
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  7. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    My own is based on logic and common sense, and consequently mainstream answers as per someone with an Astrophysics degree,



    No, you were not talking of Neutron stars. In fact I doubt you know what one is or anything about NDP...except what I have told you already.
    You were and are wrong. Stop shifting the goal posts.

    Anyway I have things to do, and educating you is rather boring to say the least.
     
  8. humbleteleskop Banned Banned

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    Wrong, check it out again. Your ridiculously confused fallacious statements are not even funny anymore. -- You posted "Supernova Nucleosynthesis" links and in response I gave you a link about supernovas, which also applies to other very neutron rich environments, like neutron stars are. I also explicitly told you several times I am not talking about stars made of hydrogen.
     
  9. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

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    Apparently, you need to be reminded of your own claims. They were:

    1. Fission occurs in supernovas.
    2. Fission occurs in neutron stars.
    3. Fission occurs in black holes.
    4. Fission creates hydrogen in large quantities.
    5. Pressure and density are the same thing.
    6. Pressure causes fission.

    My objections were:
    1. Fission can't occur in places where there are no atoms.
    2. Fission does not create hydrogen.
    3. Pressure and density are not the same thing.

    Now, since I was non-specific about objection #1, it required you to know which of your first three points it applied to and didn't rule out the possibility that not all of your claims were wrong. Obviously, there are atoms in supernovae and an abundance of heavy elements created, so fission is unsurprising. So that claim was not in error -- just all the rest of them were. So the rest are the ones you need to prove.

    Let's have a look at neutron stars:
    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutron_star

    Oops, looks like that took care of #6 as well: pressure causes stability, not decay.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2014
  10. humbleteleskop Banned Banned

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    557
    That's not my theory, I made no any claims about it, just mentioned that I saw articles on the internet about it. By the way, why do you think fission can not occur in neutron stars, supernovas or black holes? Where do all those neutrons come from if not from fission of some atoms?


    Fission can create hydrogen atoms both directly and indirectly.


    I was talking about initialization of a chain fission reaction, and I said increasing pressure has the same effect as increasing density. It means that if additional mass keeps getting added to some planetary body, the core of the planet will sustain increasing pressure, which will cause increased core density. Do you disagree?


    If you read more carefully you will notice I was intentionally being vague when I said "OR SOMETHING". It means I was not sure what exactly it was about, because I didn't read any of it, because I don't care about it, and I made no claims about it. I mentioned it only as a prelude to my question which followed in the next sentence. Your ability to misinterpret and cling onto irrelevant is amazing, are you a robot?
     
  11. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

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    5,051
    I didn't say it was your theory (though the rambling nature of your claims did indicate you were making them up as you went along) and it doesn't have to be your theory to be your claim. And indeed, mentioning that you saw articles about it is a claim. So: prove that you saw articles about fission in netrons stars, creating hydrogen.

    Or, if you are trying to slink away, just say you want to retract it.
    What a mess:
    1. Neutron stars: read the wiki quote I posted above (you may have missed it in the late add.
    2. Supernovas: Fission can occur in supernovas, but as a relative footnote -- and, of course, without creating hydrogen.
    3. Black holes: Whatever happens in a black hole can't be seen since it is in a black hole. But speculating: matter falling into a black hole is torn arpart by tidal forces, not compressed, as it falls. When it gets into the center, it is compressed to essentially nothing. Nowhere for fission to occur -- though I suppose if you drop a nuclear reactor into a black hole it will keep fissing until it is torn apart...
    4. Where do the neturons come from in a neutron star? Crused atoms: electrons and protons get crushed together to form neutrons.

    You have certainly never read any articles about any of these things. But again: your claim, your responsibility to prove it. Prove it by providing the articles you claim to have read.
    No. But again: your claim, so prove it. I'd show the opposite:

    Here's an article describing the products of fission. See if you can find the word "hydrogen" in it:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fission_product
    That's not exactly what you said, but close enough: and still wrong.
    Yes. The density increase due to pressure in the core is insignificant and irrelevant. Critical mass doesn't require any pressure and the density is only a matter of bringing enough mass close together.

    But again, I already said fission occurs naturally in earth. So while your description of how/why is wrong, you did in this case ramble your way to a right answer.
    Here is one of those exactly claims:
    So: your claims are that fission happens in neutron stars, supernovas and black holes and that you've seen articles/papers about it. So those are the claims you need to prove...

    ...in addition, of course, to your claim about all of this creating hydrogen:
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2014
  12. humbleteleskop Banned Banned

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    You are hallucinating, I did not say that. I posted a link about fission in neutron rich environment, and that will be enough.


    You need to realize it's true because you can not show the opposite.


    You have no clue.


    No, if you look at what you quoted you will see that I clearly said this:
    - "Fission in neutron stars, supernovas and black holes is not my theory, I just said that I've seen articles and papers about it.


    I didn't say "any", I was talking about "enough". Anyway, I'm glad you finally agreed, that was the whole point. I rest my case.
     
  13. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

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    I did show it: I gave you the wiki link to fission products. But again, it is still your claim to prove. You appear to be trying to dodge away from it now. It would be simpler and more graceful if you just admit it: fission does not create hydrogen. I think you know it because you ARE now looking for links to prove your claims and you found a link for the only one that is true. All the rest, you know are false because you've already tried and failed to verify them.
    Again: I know it isn't your theory: it is your CLAIM. And as with the above, if you want out, the more graceful thing would be to just admit it: fission does not happen in neutron stars or black holes and only in supernovae as a biproduct of large isotope creation (the net result is bigger atoms, not smaller ones).

    *I* said "any": Fission does not require any pressure and pressure plays little or no role in the cases being discussed. Jeez, your reading comprehension is terrible!
     
  14. dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

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    *** Moderators/Administrators : one (1) reason this Thread should be relegated to "The Cesspool". ***

    - Post # 523 :
    - Post #541 :
    - for some reason the Yahoo answers "post" of someone claiming knowledge Sourced from an "Astrophysics Degree: is given credence.

    - Post #543 :
    - the Member that has "lost track actually what all this is about" - in less than 8 hours!! - claims to utilize "Common sense" and knowledge of "nuclear physics" based on a response from "Yahoo answers" to proclaim a "fact".

    - post #543 :
    - What evidence was presented that the response on "Yahoo answers" ... "as per someone with an Astrophysics degree", was actually given by someone that had in fact earned an Astrophysics degree?

    - Yet in Post #523, the Poster clearly stated : "Fission in neutron stars, supernovas and black holes is not my theory, I just said that I've seen articles and papers about it, and I do not find it to be surprising at all."

    - Post # 523 :
    ...
    - ???!!!

    There are websites, such as : http://www.stanford.edu , that all anybody has to do is got to and "type in" something as simple as : " fission in stars?? ", hit enter and get the following responses : http://www.stanford.edu/search/?cx=...??&sa=Search&siteurl=http://www.stanford.edu/ ,
    - from the FIRST response : "Technetium of the Stars", Link : http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2011/ph241/hamman1/
    - the ^^above quoted^^ from : http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2011/ph241/hamman1/


    This Post from me, dmoe, will most likely be "received" as most any other Post of mine, by the Members that claim common sense and a reliance on mainstream science - Yahoo answers is "mainstream science" ???!!!

    The "internet" can easily be a source of Real Science Knowledge - such as http://www.stanford.edu - but evidently "sources" such as http://www.stanford.edu , are not "reputable" enough for the Members that claim "common sense and a reliance on mainstream science".

    There seems to be a curious inability by the Members that claim "common sense and a reliance on mainstream science", to actually exhibit or produce supporting evidence in their Posts, to actually back up those spurious claims!


    *** Moderators/Administrators : That is only one (1) of a myriad of reasons that this Thread should be relegated to "The Cesspool". ***
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2014
  15. AlexG Like nailing Jello to a tree Valued Senior Member

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    "Prove me wrong". The battlecry of the crank.
     
  16. humbleteleskop Banned Banned

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    I'm saying any nucleus with two or more neutrons can be a subject of nuclear fission, or involved in fission chain reaction. Does mainstream theory say anything contrary to this claim, do you have any reason to disagree?


    When planetary bodies accumulate sufficient mass pressure plays a critical role in compressing the core and initiating chain nuclear fission reaction.
     
  17. AlexG Like nailing Jello to a tree Valued Senior Member

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    You just make this up as you go along? Fusion requires compression, not fission.
     
  18. origin Trump is the best argument against a democracy. Valued Senior Member

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    I certainly do. For atoms that have a mass less than iron the fission products would have less binding energy than the original atom which means the atoms will not undergo fission due to the energy barrier.

    Look at this graph:

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  19. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

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    I absolutely disagree, but in either case, that isn't what that line of discussion was about... unless you are suggesting helium fission to create hydrogen...

    Still no. All it takes is the accumulation part: Jo pressure required. Indeed, natural nuclear reactors exist at or near the surface of earth.
     
  20. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

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    5,051
    Yes, if you read the discussion, the morphing of his statements and complete ignorance they reflect does indeed imply he is making it up as he goes along.
     
  21. dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

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    True That, AlexG!!!

    Sadly, it is not the only "Battle Cry" that is incessantly bellowed, screamed, howled, squawked, squealed, hollered, wailed...etc., etc...by various Members on SciForums!

    Even sadder is that too many of these self-proclaimed "knowledgeable adult" Members view and subsequently utilize SciForums - which is supposedly a Forum to allow participation in Open, Earnest and Honest Scientific Discussions - as nothing more than a "Battlefield".
     
  22. humbleteleskop Banned Banned

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    Increased pressure is direct consequence of additional mass, just like increased density is direct consequence of increased pressure.


    No fission in the Earth's core?
     
  23. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

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    5,051
    Critical mass is so low that the pressure due to gravity is almost incalculably low.
    There are many other cases where increased pressure causes such a small density change that it is ignored. Hydrostatic pressure, for example.
    Yes, there is fission in earths core.

    Again, you seem to be trying to run from your previous claims. I'd still really like to see you try to prove that:
    1. Fission creates hydrogen.
    2. Any atom with 2 or more neutrons can undergo fission.
    3. Fission happens in black holes.
    4. Fission happens in neutron stars.
     

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