The sun has been shine for billions of years, where all the photons go?

Discussion in 'The Cesspool' started by jcc, Jul 24, 2015.

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  1. jcc Registered Senior Member

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    • Plagiarism will not be tolerated.
    When we think about light we don’t really think about what it is made of. This was actually the subject one of the most important arguments in physics. For the longest time physicists and scientist tried to determine if light was a wave or a particle. There were the physicists of the eighteenth century who strongly believed that light was made of basic units , but certain properties like refraction caused light to be reclassified as a wave. It would take no less than Einstein to resolve the issue. Thanks to him and the work of other renowned physicists we know more about what are photons.

    To put it simply photons are the fundamental particle of light. They have a unique property in that they are both a particle and a wave. This is what allows photons unique properties like refraction and diffusion. However light particles are not quite the same as other elementary particles. They have interesting characteristics that are not commonly observed. First, as of right now physicists theorize that photons have no mass. They have some characteristics of particles like angular momentum but their frequency is independent of the influence of mass They also don’t carry a charge.

    Photons are basically the most visible portion of the electromagnetic spectrum. This was one of the major breakthroughs Einstein and the father of quantum physics, Planck made about the nature of light. This link is what is behind the photoelectric effect that makes solar power possible.Because light is another form of energy it can be transferred or converted into other types. In the case of the photoelectric effect the energy of light photons is transferred through the photons bumping into the atoms of a giving material. This causes the atom that is hit to lose electrons and thus make electricity.

    As mentioned before photons played a key role in the founding of quantum physics. The study of the photons properties opened up a whole new class of fundamental particles called quantum particles. Thanks to photons we know that all quantum particles have both the properties of waves and particles. We also know that energy can be discretely measured on a quantum scale.

    Photons also played a big role in Einstein’s theory of relativity. without the photon we would not understand the importance of the speed of light and with it the understanding of the interaction of time and space that it produced. We now know that the speed of light is an absolute that can’t be broken by natural means as it would needs an infinite amount of energy something that is not possible in our universe. So without the photon we would not have the knowledge about our universe that we now possess.

    Here is the article, please tell me where is the answer to my questions?
     
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  3. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    The Internet is a big place. Why not google and find your answers?
    If you do not find answers that satisfy you, then perhaps you need to accept the fact that you lack something that normal folk have and that enables normal folk to understand, or the possibility of you might have an agenda that blinds you to accept answers that most folk that are normal are able to understand.
     
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  5. AlexG Like nailing Jello to a tree Valued Senior Member

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    krash661 likes this.
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  7. krash661 [MK6] transitioning scifi to reality Valued Senior Member

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    hilarious.... according to whom ?
    as for the rest of your post, again, ponder what i have stated rather than replying to show whatever you believe to be consider intelligence
    agian,
    for understanding; must come acceptance. the question is meaningless. but anything i state may not be an achievement, considering the mismatch between our intellects.
     
  8. krash661 [MK6] transitioning scifi to reality Valued Senior Member

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    meanwhile i receive a ban from being truthful.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    shrugs.
     
  9. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Q1:
    http://www.energyquest.ca.gov/story/chapter01.html
    Q2:
    http://www.pveducation.org/pvcdrom/properties-of-sunlight/energy-of-photon
    Q3Photons are massless particles that by definition travel at "c"
    It is the Universal speed limit for anything with mass.
    https://van.physics.illinois.edu/qa/listing.php?id=2605

    Again, if you find these answers unsatisfactory, then we can only assume one of three things...[1] You lack understanding ability and what it entails [2] You are a child that as yet has not developed his mind sufficiently to understand. [3] You have an agenda.
     
  10. jcc Registered Senior Member

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    All the stars around us send photons to us since the big bang, where those photons go?

    Space expending speed is less than c, so all the photons away from all the matter will never reach anything and keep travel away forever? Then how is energy conserved?
     
  11. krash661 [MK6] transitioning scifi to reality Valued Senior Member

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    hilarious..........

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    shrugs.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  12. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    It would be polite for you to acknowledge the answers in post 26.
    And of course the new questions have been answered at post 5.
     
  13. jcc Registered Senior Member

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    If you understand those answers, please explain it to me, thanks.
     
  14. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Obviously you have a problem.
    Again, if you find these answers unsatisfactory or you are unable to understand, then we can only assume one of four things...[1] You lack understanding ability and what it entails [2] You are a child that as yet has not developed his mind sufficiently to understand. [3] You have an agenda.[4]You are trolling.
    The first three I am unable to help you with and you need to seek professional assistance. The fourth will of course see you in time, banned again.
     
  15. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Mod Note - plagiarism is not tolerated... please do keep this in mind.
     
  16. Daecon Kiwi fruit Valued Senior Member

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    Why? Every time something is explained to you, you just ignore the answer and ask the same question all over again.

    We give you links to wiki articles and you reject them, claiming that you want an answer that isn't from wiki, and to re-explain in our own words - which you just ignore. Again.
     
  17. AlexG Like nailing Jello to a tree Valued Senior Member

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    The energy is still there travelling through space.
     
  18. origin Heading towards oblivion Valued Senior Member

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    Well well, jcc has been banned for 6 days. That means in 6 days he will be back and ask the same questions and show the same anti-science attitude. Either ban him permanently or just leave him alone, he is obviously not going to change his trollish behavior so these temporary bans are useless.
     
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  19. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    jcc:

    Yes.

    No. Light travelling through space still carries energy.

    Almost all of the energy landing on the Earth from the Sun is re-radiated back into space. Unfortunately, not quite all of it, or else there'd be no global warming happening, but to a good approximation all of it is re-radiated.

    The amount of energy we get from distance stars is very small. Go outside and look at a star. It's not that bright compared to the Sun, is it?

    Yes.

    No, because the universe is expanding.
     
  20. danshawen Valued Senior Member

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_core

    Paraphrased from that article:

    "...photon travel time from the core of our Sun to the outer edge of the photosphere (the part of the Sun we see) is about 170,000 years."

    Lifetime of a photon:

    http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2013/jul/24/what-is-the-lifetime-of-a-photon

    "...photons with tiny masses travel at nearly the speed of light, so time dilatation must be accounted for to in order to obtain their lifetime in our frame of reference, and this was calculated to be 10^18 or a billion billion years."

    If you observe a photon, the energy is completely absorbed either by the atoms that comprise the retina of our eye, or that of a light sensitive element of a camera or other instrument.

    A suggestion for non-destructive observation of a photon would be to create an entangled pair of them. That way, if you view just ONE of them, you can be absolutely certain that there is another photon traveling in an opposed direction, which, until or unless it strikes a reflective surface and bounces back, you can never see again. The observation of the one closest to you assures that the one that has set out for parts unknown is no longer entangled with the one you just viewed.

    When photons are absorbed by the outer electrons of atoms, they respond by changing energy states. For instance, if a photon strikes an atom in the retina of our eye, we can easily see red light reflected back from because the retinas are only semi-transparent. The "red eye" you see in photographs is a picture of a retina awash with oxygenated blood vessels. Some photons strike atoms deeper in the retina. Red ones the same color as red blood cells are reflected back to the camera lens.

    Energy conservation works just fine everywhere, even in the quantum domain, although the way the math works these days, this is an average behavior. The theory is that energy may evidently "borrowed" from the vacuum for the purposes of atomic structure. Either you may borrow a little energy for a long time, or you may borrow a lot of energy for a short time, and the uncertainty principle also comes into play in such transactions (making the exact amount you borrowed questionable).

    Yet when you point out that Higgs bosons have inertial mass and impart inertia to electrons, quarks, W and Z bosons and their antiparticles, the first thing a particle physicist will tell you is that this comprises about 2% of an atom's total mass. Most of the mass of an atom is tied up in gluon color charge energy exchanges between quarks in the nucleons, and this energy accounts for 98% of an atom's total mass. For stable atoms, this energy comes from the vacuum and is permanently bound unless hit by some other particle in a collider. So energy bound in atomic structure is the physics textbook case of energy conservation. Except that the vacuum fluctuations of energy are designated as the source of those gluon-quark color charge exchanges. So, is energy conserved in atomic structure or is it not?

    The model of energy conservation currently doesn't work for energy transactions involving gravity, or for any candidate quantum theory of gravity either. Small wonder it doesn't. In the Standard Model, the variable we refer to as time has been replaced with probability densities. If they did not, there would be too many infinities to deal with. In General Relativity, the amount of energy derived from an object of mass m falling into, say, a black hole from an infinite distance away is equal to the rest mass m converted entirely to energy, or mc^2. Yet once the object has impacted the event horizon, no energy has actually been lost, which is why it is not a process in which energy is conserved. If you wish to solve this dilemma, simply think of any mass in terms of particle pair creation. It isn't a mystery then. No such calculation is possible in the Standard Model of particle physics.

    Photons are energy, and although they bend around or may be captured by something as massive as a black hole, they are already energy traveling at the speed of light. I've already referenced their mean lifetimes.

    Does this answer your question?
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2015
  21. jcc Registered Senior Member

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    412
    Use fire to cock water in a metal pot, what's the mechanism?

    Fire emit photons, pot absorb photons, then pot emit photons into water, so electrons in water atoms absorb those photons and become hotter?

    Or fire atoms hit pot, transfer vibration force to pot atoms, then pot atoms transfer vibration force to water atoms, so water vibrate faster and heat up?

    Current passes through carbon wire will produce heat and light radiation, what's the mechanism?

    1. Current makes electrons in carbon atoms changing orbitals and emit photons and phonos?

    2. Current makes carbon atoms vibrate at a band of frequency and produce a band of gravitational radiation?
     
  22. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    8,336
    Long ago:
    I got a toy from the museum.
    It was an evacuated glass ball within which was a shaft with 4 wings attached such that one axis of the wings was perpendicular to and the other in line with the shaft.
    If the shaft and wings were rotating clockwise, the leading face of the wings was black, while the trailing face was white.

    memory fades

    when placed in the sun:
    Which way did it spin?
     
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  23. origin Heading towards oblivion Valued Senior Member

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    Mostly convection.

    Most of heat is convection from the fire to the steel and a combination of conduction / convection from the steel to the water.

    That is closer to what happens but there is no such thing as a fire atom.

    Resistance heating.

    No, resistance heating.

    LOL, no, not even close.
     
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