The Solar Messiahs

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Xelasnave.1947, Nov 21, 2018.

  1. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I enjoy astronomy so I find it interesting the multitude of "human gods" invented to match some of the ancients perception of activity I generally call astronomy but I suppose given the corruption of same we can rightfully call it astrology.

    The solar messiahs share many common features because their inventors drew heavily upon their observations of the "heavenly bodies".

    Generally a "Solar messiah" is a " human god" who is a personification of the Sun.

    All share the notion of the "human god" dieing on "the cross" and being reborn which relates to the Sun appearing to "rest" for three days at that part of its journey.

    These solar messiahs all have 12 followers which is thought to represent the 12 constellations.

    The birth of the "human god" is associated with "three kings" which seems a reference to the stars in Orion known as the three kings and with Sirus they point to the birth place of the Sun on the 25th December.
    There are many of sites on the net which are easy to find but if pressed I will provide a link.

    It all points to christianity being yet another solar messiah religion possibly getting the idea from the Eygption solar messiah Horace.

    I expect christians would try and reject that their human god is founded from earlier solar messiahs but it seems that is indeed the case.
    Alex
     
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  3. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    From..https://www.ukessays.com/essays/the...he-solar-messiahs-theology-religion-essay.php

    Horus (Egypt, 3000 BC)

    Born of a virgin (Isis)

    Born on December 25th

    Star in the east

    Adored by 3 kings

    Prodigal teacher at 12

    Baptized at 30

    Had 12 Disciples and travelled throughout the world

    Performed miracles (healing the sick, walking on water etc.)

    A.k.a. “The Truth”, “The Light”, “The lamb of god”, “The good shepherd” etc

    Crucified

    Buried for 3 days

    Resurrected

    These attributes of Horus, seem to have permeated many cultures and many other gods around the world are found to have the same general mythological structure. For example:

    Attis (Greece, 1200 BC)

    Born of a virgin

    Born on 25th December

    Crucified

    Dead for 3 days

    Resurrected

    Krishna (India, 900 BC)

    Born of a virgin (Devaki, even though I strongly doubt how can she be a virgin on the time of the 9th childbirth!!)

    Star in the east

    Performed Miracles

    Resurrected

    Dionysus (Greece, 500 BC)

    Born of a virgin

    Born on 25th December

    Performed miracle (turned water into wine, no wonder people loved him!!)

    A.k.a. “Alpha and Omega”, “King of kings”

    Resurrected

    Mithra (Persia, 1200 BC)

    Born of a virgin

    Born on December 25th

    Performed miracles

    Had 12 disciples

    Buried for 3 days

    Resurrected

    A non-exhaustive list of gods with similar mythological structures will also include:

    Buddha

    Salivahan (Bermuda)

    Odin (Norse)

    Crite (Chaldea)

    Baal and Taut (Phoenecia)

    Indra (Tibet/India)

    Bali (Afghanistan)

    Jao (Nepal)

    Wittoba (Bilingonese)

    Thammuz (Syria)

    Atys (Phrygia)

    Xamolxis (Thrace)

    Adad (Assyria)

    Beddru (Japan)

    Thor (Gaul)

    Adonis (Greece)

    and many more.

    The link tells much more and well worth a read.

    Alex
     
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  5. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    OK
    I've read a fair amount of egyptiantian mythology and I gotta say
    I ain't got no idea where your author is getting this stuff from.
    ISIS resurrected a small part of her dead husband/brother ISIS to conceive their son HORUS(nothing about her being virgin)
    She raised her son HORUS to fight his uncle SET for control of the Nile valley.
    In one battle, SET lost his testicals and HORUS lost an eye(most think HORUS won this fight)
    Metaphor
    HORUS represented taming the nile floods.
     
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  7. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks for your observations.
    I will look into Horus a little more.
    Alex
     
  8. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    From the little I have read I am inclinded to ask the same question.
    Although I did note a comment to the effect that there are a few different versions.
    Also noted some scholars reject the claim that Horus was drawn upon to construct JC.
    However the story suggested by the link I have seen before on various places so if it is incorrect it will be interesting to see who claims that account and why.
    Alex
     
  9. LaurieAG Registered Senior Member

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    If you look at the ancient Greek myths you will see that the 'solar king' is the consort to the queen in a matriarchal society.

    Robert Graves, a linguist and translator for Penguin Classics, writes about how the many cults of Hercules represent the putting down of matriarchal child sacrifice cults where the king sacrificed a proxy (their child or another) instead of being executed at the end of their reign. Among many other examples, Graves discusses how Odysseus, from Homers Iliad and Odyssey, takes his wife Penelope from her fathers kingdom to his own kingdom in Ithaca even though the tradition of the time was for a prince to travel to another kingdom and marry the queen to become king.

    http://www.24grammata.com/wp-conten...rt-Graves-The-Greek-Myths-24grammata.com_.pdf
    Robert Graves also wrote 'the white goddess', based on the change from matriarchal to patriarchal society, which ties much of the ancient worlds myth and legends together into an interesting read.

    http://fendersen.holeinthewallhosting.com/The-White-Goddess.pdf
     
  10. Hapsburg Hellenistic polytheist Valued Senior Member

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    5,164
    Graves' ideas are largely of his own making, rooted in the poor scholarship of James Frazer. The two were enormously influential in anthropology, mythography, and mytho-poetics in the early 20th century. But by the 1960s, their ideas were largely dismissed.

    Similarly, many of your claims about solar deities and their alleged similarities to the Jesus story are also based on poor scholarship. If there are any pre-Christian gods you want to compare Jesus to, it's not any solar deities. It's Dionysos.
     
  11. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    5,292
    Shoot the messenger?
    Do you reject the astrology connection.
    The resurrection would seem an effort to tie the "man" to the Sun.
    I dont know but the general propostion of the astrology link seems reasonable...anyways I expect if one is a christian there is no way that the astrology connection would be acceptable let alone given reasonable consideration.
    However from what I have read to date the astrology link seems reasonable.
    Alex
     
  12. LaurieAG Registered Senior Member

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    314
    If you have read Pausanias "Guide to Ancient Greece", circa 200, you will see that this leads to the ancient Greek archaeology we know today. Graves Greek Myths is a consolidation of all references to the various Greek Myths by all authors broken down into 3 sections. The first are the translations from the different sources, the second the list of the sources author/book and finally an analysis based on known history and archaeological evidence.
     
  13. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    1,463
    you have no question marks.
    are you blogging ?
     
  14. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    fyi... what seems to have been noted recently is the difference in language use.
    the term virgin being fairly recent and used to over write the concept of "sanctus"
    a "virgin birth" has been suggested to have an original different language meaning of "born of a sacred mother".
    the interchangable terms of clean, virgin and sanctus/sacred being somewhat troublesome when attempting to control the dumb masses with genocide and war and such like.

    the "lean" to a different direction to change the meaning of sacred into sexual virgin is quite a thing.
    "sexual virgin" servicing the patriachal psychopath/narcissist
    "sacred" underminig the genocidal dictator

    rape & genocide were standard procedures for many thousands of years regardles of religion type.

    interestingly enough... the concept of individual authority over the self is fairly new.
    the common use term is called democracy.
    a "free democrat" should have no less rights than a male.
    per say...
    however that is rarely the case and only a small minority of countrys which share similar religions(ironically enough) give women equal rights.
     
  15. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    5,292
    Your observation is correct so let me ask now as if this were the last sentence in the op..." what do you think as to the proposition that astrology may have been a common influence with many human gods ?"
    Alex
     
  16. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Interesting and informative.
    Alex
     
  17. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    i dont mind that you answer my question with a question, my observation possed the question. the question is not my observation.
    that aside...
    while i assume to understand your question, you may wish to introduce me to a human god so i can ask them.

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    after spending all day hunting then half the day looking up at the sky, as the mind forms it only seems natural to assimilate functions of perception that directly correlate to the environment.
    "who am i" asked the cave man ...
    "why am i ?"asked the cave man (not a very sexy question for a caveman to be asking himself i gues but none the less...

    profundity prosed to "i am a..."
    "because..."
     
  18. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    5,292
    The meaning is perhaps not as important as the fact that various human gods were born of a virgin...whatever that meaning embraced at the time.

    The aspect that is relevant is we have a constellation named Virgo , the virgin, and that our human gods shared the aspect that they all had virgin mothers...presumably whatever they classified as a virgin was common to all but the key is what seems an attempt to relate the human god to their observations and classifications of the various groups of stars ...

    The three kings who sort to find Jesus it is alledged relate to the three stars in the constellation of Orion called "the three kings" and they followed a star "Sirius" which pointed to the birth place on 25th December ...the place being where the Sun was born.

    Alex
     
  19. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    5,292
    My question, as I did indicate, was to be seen by way of an ammendment, to the op, that could be made no other way given the time to edit had passed such that the op should not be seen as blogging.
    Well I cant do that as there are none alive today.

    Some say they talk to JC daily but I doubt it the more reasonable explanation for their belief being found in wishful thinking.


    Actually I expect that there may be folk out there who even today make the claim they are a god...certainly there would be many who hold such a belief secretly.

    I use the term human gods to group those humans who have made the claim in the past that they are the son of god and god all at once ...like but not limited to JC.

    My proposition is there seems to be various humans who made the claim they are the son of god, all of who share a common theme of having qualities that we observe with our Sun and from this I think a reasonable observation could be that JC was not the only human to claim god status and share the various astrology links with others making similar claims.
    I am interested to hear what others think...
    Alex
     
  20. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    ... redefining the point saying what is written is not the point.

    language is important. it means a great deal in the difference between "things"
    ok sure thats possible, but different languages have different meanings of different words.
    the bible was not written to teach those reading it different languages and different ways of thinking about philisophical constructs of the human psyche.
    common denominator
    most cavemen slept under the stars
    sitting around a camp fire for thousands of years thinking...

    your fervent attempt to whip up an emotional discoarse is noted.
    the stars didnt change much
    books on the other hand.. they change depending on whos reading them. regardles of the text being the same.
    the bible was translated some 14 times over 7 different languages over a period of 2000 years.
    its hardly likely to remain purely in its original form, AND its going to be used as a weapon as it was for hundreds of years.

    your not doing athiests any favours by your projected argument premise.
    you are assigning it truth and then moaning about it being true.
    thats not a solid ground for constructive debate.

    that said, dont let my comments prevent you from blogging your thoughts

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    without free speech we may as well all be hitler
     
  21. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I know the feeling as I spend a great deal of time under the stars however my thoughts never turn to why am I here or the like...but I can understand ...no tv to guide your thoughts may leave room for original thoughts of your own...seeking answers to questions they could not answer left room to invent gods and room to believe their actions could be interpreted by star gazing.

    But there are no gods influencing the stars.

    Looking at stars is like looking at clouds you see things that are not really there but when you see them they some how become real...for some.

    Clouds are clouds stars are stars giving them qualities beyond their make up corrupts the imagination.

    I think religion is an extention of astrology.
    Alex
     
  22. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Whats atheism got to do with anything?
    And why should what I talk about have anything to do with how you or anyone regard atheists...
    I observe the commonality ...is it true or untrue the commonality I point to is there or not...it seems reasonable unless you can point out that the commonality was merely invented and now appears in various sites, vids and books as a constructed lie...I dont think its a lie so far but if you want to run with that go ahead...if you show its a lie I wont have a problem..
    And I have not moaned at all and say you are trying to head off discussion rather than address the issues I am raising.
    If you disagree point out where the problem as you see it lays...talking about me being a moaning atheist upon my limited understanding of logical fallacy appears to be an attack on the presenter and not the issue.
    Do you have any comment on the proposition that does not have you concerned as to how I may bring atheists into disrepute?
    And you mention ground for solid debate ... whilst you fail to address the issue and point out my countless flaws all you have done is avoided the matter.

    I dont care but you are missing the opportunity to say its a load of rubbish and not the truth which can only suggest that course is not open to you.
    Your first attempt to sidetrack was clumbsy and although I sort to remove blogging from the table so as to make clear I was not just having a rant you still want to run with that approach.
    OK.
    Lets call my posts blogs if that makes you happy...
    Do you have anything to reject the general propositions I present.
    This thread is not about the bible...where did you get that?
    The bible relates to just one of our human gods..at least half of it...Your choice of defence suggests you are not even considering the proposition.

    Forget JC and lets talk about all those other false religions that draw on astrology and all those other false gods who identify with being the son of "their" god...the Sun.

    Lets talk about all those human gods that we share our atheist belief...after all I presume the only thing that seperates us is you believe in just one more god than me☺

    Alex
     
  23. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Noted eh☺.

    Could it be you are guilty of the crime that you suggest I commit.☺

    Alex
     

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