The socialist/communist death toll, so far

Discussion in 'World Events' started by DJSupreme23, Jul 3, 2003.

  1. DJSupreme23 neocortex activated Registered Senior Member

    Rudy Rummel is an internationally acclaimed historian, and Nobel laureate. His pages are here:

    But I wil call your attention to this page:

    The confirmed death toll of communist rule, so far is:

    USSR (Lening, Stalin): 61,9 million
    China (Mao): 35,2 million
    Germany (Hitler): 20,9 million
    Mao Soviets iN CHina: 3,4 million
    Combodia: 2 million
    Vietname 1,6 million
    Yoguslavia: 1 million

    North Korea: 1,6 million

    Added up:

    ~129 million dead in the 20th century.

    Thats a real kick-ass ideology, socialism!
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  3. Ghassan Kanafani Mujahid Registered Senior Member

    Oh here go the un-informing threads again ..........

    Yes , hate on socialism , why dont you blaim Marx , he's responsible for all of those deaths . Why dont you blame the publisher Engels , why dont you blaim their parents for making them .

    Man you are really lousy at identifying causes .
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  5. Psycho-Cannon Home grown and Psycho Registered Senior Member

    And yet again here we go with Hitler was a left wing socialist.
    We've had this argument so many times its just getting silly.
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  7. DJSupreme23 neocortex activated Registered Senior Member

    You know what the tem "Nazism" means, yes?

    National Socialism.

    Not only that, but Hitler and Stalin were at good terms until Barbarossa. Why? because their ideologies were essentially the same - socialism.

    Look at this except of what came to be the NSDAP/Nazi party:

    "(1) Leaflet published by the National Socialist German Workers Party (1920)

    There is a secret world conspiracy, which while speaking much about humanity and tolerance, in reality wants only to harness the people to a new yoke. A number of workers' leaders belong to this group. The leaders are big capitalists.

    300 big bankers, financiers and press barons, who are interconnected across the world, are the real dictators. They belong almost exclusively to the "chosen people". They are all members of the same conspiracy.

    The Jewish big capitalist always plays our friend and dogooder; but he only does it to make us into his slaves. The trusting worker is going to help him set up the world dictatorship of Jewry. Because that is their goal, as it states in the Bible. "All the peoples will serve you, all the wealth of the world will belong to you".
    Shake off your Jewish leaders, and those in the pay of Judas! And one final point. Don't expect anything from Bolshevism. It doesn't bring the worker freedom. In Russia the eight-hour day has been abolished. There are no more workers' councils. All cower under the dictatorship of a hundred government commissars, who are nine-tenths Jewish. "

    Apart from the pronoiced anti-semitism, it is obviously socialist party slogans - attacks on capitalism and those in power.
  8. Jerrek Registered Senior Member

    Yay, DJSupreme. I've been trying to convince these mice nuts about Hitler and his left-wing party but they just feel the need to put him on the right because they don't want to be reminded that every major problem in history is the left's fault.
  9. Thaug Registered Senior Member

    Jerrek, when your a communist everything is right wing.
  10. EI_Sparks Registered Senior Member

    We've done this to death. At least have the courtesy to use that link in the top left of your screen, see it? The one marked "search"?
  11. DJSupreme23 neocortex activated Registered Senior Member

    You know why it was illegal to call nazism by its real name - national *socialism* - in the USSR?

    Because it might remind people too much of the regime they themselves lived in.

    Thats why you always see nazism referred to as "fascism".
  12. grazzhoppa yawwn Valued Senior Member

    That's a real nice attitude when talking about the equivalent population of large country having been killed.

    What I find the American government's rampage across Native American lands doesn't even come up in that chart.

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    There weren't even 700,000 Native Americans killed by the government? I might be mistaken. Maybe it's not significant enough so it's in "Lesserer Murderers"....nice title.

    The Vietnam total doesn't specify whether it was the South Vietnamese (non-social/communist) or the North Vietnamese governments to be doing the deed. Remember...the South Vietnamese government was run by an awful dictator who was purging his country of North Vietnamese supporters, so the South would win the vote when it was time to combine the two countries. If the vote would've happened, Ho Chi Mihn's government would've been the official, recognized government of Vietnam. The people hated the South's ruler.
  13. DJSupreme23 neocortex activated Registered Senior Member

    Re: Re: The socialist/communist death toll, so far

    You are familiar with sarcasm, yes?
  14. EI_Sparks Registered Senior Member

    Just for you DJ,

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  15. nico Banned Banned

    oh god not this, the practice is not the ideology remember that. Also those 61 million does that include all the Russians killed in WWII as well? If so then the number is shrunk to 41 million, and according to my sources:

    Death Toll Event Dates
    1 50,000,000 Second World War (Some overlap w/Stalin. Includes Sino-Japanese War and Holocaust. Doesn't incl. post-war German expulsions) 1937-45
    2 48,250,000 China: Mao Zedong's regime. (incl. famine) 1949-76
    3 20,000,000 USSR: Stalin's regime (incl. WW2-era atrocities) 1924-53
    4 15,000,000 First World War (incl. Armenian massacres) 1914-18
    5 8,800,000 Russian Civil War 1918-21
    6 4,000,000 China: Warlord & Nationalist Era 1917-37
    7 3,000,000 Congo Free State [n.1] 1900-08
    8 2,800,000 Korean War 1950-53
    9 2,700,000 2nd Indochina War (incl. Laos & Cambodia) 1960-75
    10 2,500,000 Chinese Civil War 1945-49
    11 2,100,000 German Expulsions after WW2 1945-47
    12 1,900,000 Second Sudanese Civil War 1983-
    13 1,700,000 Congolese Civil War 1998-
    14 1,650,000 Cambodia: Khmer Rouge Regime 1975-79
    15 1,400,000 Afghanistan: Civil War 1980-
    15 1,400,000 Ethiopian Civil Wars 1962-92
    17 1,250,000 Mexican Revolution 1910-20
    18 1,250,000 East Pakistan: Massacres 1971
    19 1,000,000 Iran-Iraq War 1980-88
    19 1,000,000 Nigeria: Biafran revolt 1967-70
    21 800,000 Mozambique: Civil War 1976-92
    21 800,000 Rwandan Massacres 1994
    23 650,000 French-Algerian War 1954-62
    24 600,000 First Indochina War 1945-54
    25 500,000 India-Pakistan Partition 1947
    25 500,000 Indonesia: Massacre of Communists 1965-67
    25 500,000 Angolan Civil War 1975-94
    25 500,000 First Sudanese Civil War 1955-72
    25 500,000 Decline of the Amazonian Indians 1900-99
    30 365,000 Spanish Civil War 1936-39
    31 350,000 Somalia: Civil War 1991-
    ? Unknown North Korea: Communist Regime 1948-
  16. DJSupreme23 neocortex activated Registered Senior Member

    Nico, interesting that you say ideology is different from practice, when it comes to socialism.

    Yet, noone have any problems linking Hitler and Nazism to the deaths of millions of jews.
  17. nico Banned Banned

    Yet, noone have any problems linking Hitler and Nazism to the deaths of millions of jews

    Nazism didn't kill the Jews Hitler did, ideology vs. practice. Socialism is not all that bad, considering the MASSIVE human rights abuses in Latin America to stop communist revolution or stifle democracy, Allende in Chile, Uruguay, Argentina, Brazil. Or the South Africans in there little campaigns against communism, or the communist subversions in Taiwan and SK. Surely they didn;t kill as many but they killed calliously, that's has to count for something.
  18. DJSupreme23 neocortex activated Registered Senior Member

    Now youre taking the debate to a silly level. Guns dont kill people, people do. Yet, guns are a tool that does the killing.

    You do not consider that racial discrimination was on the party Nazi programme, as I have shown earlier.

    Relevant to socialism, socialist systems, as we have seen them so far, do not have the checks and balances of a Democracy - that is why they have all deteriorated into dictatorships.

    Stalin may have ordered the killing of tens of millions, but the insensible way the socialist political system was constructed, no one could intervene. Thats why Democracy so far is the best tool against genocide!

    Regarding Chile, the country was facing a Castroist revolution, and I'm not surprised that the military internvened. Allende didn't play political fair game, and broke at least one very critical election promise - cooperation with the two other parties in Chile at the time.

    edit: spelling
  19. nico Banned Banned

    Now youre taking the debate to a silly level. Guns dont kill people, people do. Yet, guns are a tool that does the killing.

    No most of your arguments, i)lack logic, and ii) are inhierantly silly. I love reading your posts on sad days they pick me up.
    And yes a gun doesn't walk around and shot randomly the person does. A gun could also be used as a deterant to prevent further death if put in the right hands.

    You do not consider that racial discrimination was on the party Nazi programme, as I have shown earlier.

    I am not sure if the Nazi party had a manifesto, and I highly doubt in there was the final solution. If the Nazi's had no manifesto it is questionable if it was a established ideology or just hitler.

    Relevant to socialism, socialist systems, as we have seen them so far, do not have the checks and balances of a Democracy - that is why they have all deteriorated into dictatorships.

    Socialism is and has been bad, yes. So has the Bureaucratic Authoritarianism that plagued the Latin American countries in the fight against socialism. Since I am from Latin America i've heard and seen things that I doubt they did in most socialist countries. Also socialism wasn't as bad as it was by the 70's and 80's.

    and broke at least one very critical election promise - cooperation with the two other parties in Chile at the time.

    Two words operation condor.
    The Americans overthrew him, that is a well known fact. And also that is no justification of ousting a elected leader. And destroying democracy. Please god tell me you aren't going to defend that now.

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  20. nico Banned Banned

    Some Nazi things....

    First Supplementary Decree of 14 November 1935

    On the basis of Article III of the Reich Citizenship Law of 15 September 1935, the following is hereby decreed:


    Until further provisions concerning citizenship papers, all subjects of German or kindred blood who possessed the right to vote in the Reichstag elections when the Citizenship Law came into effect, shall, for the present, possess the rights of Reich citizens. The same shall be true of those upon whom the Reich Minister of the Interior, in conjunction with the Deputy of the Führer, shall confer citizenship.
    The Reich Minister of the Interior, in conjunction with the Deputy of the Führer, may revoke citizenship.

    The provisions of Article I shall apply also to subjects who are of mixed Jewish blood.
    An individual of mixed Jewish blood is one who is descended from one or two grandparents who, racially, were full Jews, insofar that he is not a Jew according to Section 2 of Article V. Full-blooded Jewish grandparents are those who belonged to the Jewish religious community.

    Only citizens of the Reich, as bearers of full political rights, can exercise the right of voting in political matters, and have the right to hold public office. The Reich Minister of the Interior, or any agency he empowers, can make exceptions during the transition period on the matter of holding offices. These measures do not apply to matters concerning religious organisations.

    A Jew cannot be a citizen of the Reich. He cannot exercise the right to vote; he cannot occupy public office.
    Jewish officials will be retired as of December 31, 1935. In the event that such officials served at the front in the World War either for Germany or her allies, they shall receive as pension, until they reach the age limit, the full salary last received, on the basis of which their pensions would have been computed. They shall not, however, be promoted according to their seniority in rank. When they reach the age limit, their pension will be computed again, according to the salary last received on which their pension was to be calculated.
    These provisions do not concern the affairs of religious organisations.
    The conditions regarding service of teachers in public Jewish schools remain unchanged until the promulgation of new regulations on the Jewish school system.

    A Jew is an individual who is descended from at least three grandparents who were, racially, full Jews. Article II, paragraph 2, second sentence will apply.
    A Jew is also an individual who is descended from two full-Jewish grandparents if:
    (a) he was a member of the Jewish religious community when this law was issued, or joined the community later;
    (b) when the law was issued, he was married to a person who was a Jew, or was subsequently married to a Jew;
    (c) he is the issue from a marriage with a Jew, in the sense of Section 1, which was contracted after the coming into effect of the Law for the Protection of German Blood and German Honour of September 15, 1935 (page 1146 of 15 September 1935);
    (d) he is the issue of an extramarital relationship with a Jew, according to Section 1, and born out of wedlock after July 31, 1936.

    Insofar as there are, in the laws of the Reich or in the decrees of the National Socialist German Workers' Party and its affiliates, certain requirements for the purity of German blood which extend beyond Article V, the same remain untouched.
    Any other demands on pureness of blood, not covered in Article 5, can only be made with permission from the Reich Minister of the Interior and the Deputy of the Führer. If any such demands have been made, they will be void as of 1 January 1936, if they have not been requested from the Reich Minister of the Interior in agreement with the Deputy of the Führer. These requests must be made from the Reich Minister of the Interior.

    The Führer and Chancellor of the Reich is empowered to release anyone from the provisions of these administrative decrees.

    Second Decree Implementing the Law Concerning the Change in Family Names of 17 August 1938


    Jews may receive only those first names which are listed in the directives of the Ministry of the Interior concerning the use of first names.
    This provision does not apply to Jews of a foreign nationality.

    If Jews should bear first names other than those permitted to Jews according to Paragraph I, they must, as of 1 January 1939, adopt an additional name. For males, that name shall be Israel, for females Sara.
    In a circular instruction of the Ministry of the Interior, these names were announced as Jewish first names:

    Male First Names:

    Female First Names:

    Folkish Observer, 24 August 1938.


    Police Decree Concerning the Marking of Jews of 1 September 1941


    Jews (see Paragraph 5 of the First Executive Decree Concerning the Reich Citizenship Law of 14 November 1935) over the age of six are forbidden to show themselves in public without a Jew's star.
    The Jew's star consists of a six-pointed star of yellow cloth with black borders, equivalent in size to the palm of the hand. The inscription is to read JEW in black letters. It is to be sewn to the left breast of the garment, and to be worn visibly.

    Jews are forbidden:
    (a) to leave their area of residence without carrying, on their person, written permission from the local police;
    (b) to wear medals, decorations, or other insignia.

    No final solution thus it can be said that Hitler not the ideology of Nazism killed the Jews. See the difference, if you are dealing with the ideology of socialism or whatever you talk about it not the practice of it.
  21. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    Authoritarianism is what it's about, not socialism

    You keep getting hung up on the left/right thing. Politics has more dimensions. Nazism did indeed have a strong streak of what we now call "right wing" ideology. Racial purity and superiority, purging the language of foreign words. I think it's fair to distinguish national socialism from the other, much more left-wing, types of socialism, and there's no way you can lump Hitler in with the communists.

    Try measuring it on a different scale. Complete authoritarianism at one end, complete freedom (whatever that means) at the other. On that scale Hitler and Stalin share the honors with Mao. Tito falls short, Yugoslavia had a larger private sector and fewer travel restrictions than the Soviet bloc.

    It doesn't matter how "conservative" or "liberal" your politics are. If the way you implement them is through dicatorship, you're an authoritarian.

    And "fascist" is simply the Italian word for Mussolini's politics. "Nazi" is the German name for Hitler's party. People call Hitler a fascist to make the point that if measured by pure politics, he had more in common with Mussolini than with Stalin.

    I too am surprised that the Native American death toll isn't on the second list. Perhaps because it took place over such a long time period, even longer than the people of the Amazon. Or perhaps because, at least according to the census, the population has recovered. I've seen it asserted that more than one million people in the U.S. identify themselves as Indians. (Hey, that's what most of them like to be called. I'm a "native American" because I was born here.) That's roughly equal to the population of what is now the U.S. when the Mayflower landed.

    Yes, we blame all the Germans for the Holocaust, just like Muslims blame all Americans for the occupation of Iraq. Hitler came to power in a more or less free election. If the people were too wacked out to realize who this guy was and what he was going to do, that's no excuse. W was not elected by a majority of the American voters, but if you add in all the people who didn't bother to vote and by their inaction gave tacit approval to whatever went down, he won by a landslide. If they were too busy watching Survivor, that's no excuse. What goes around comes around.
  22. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member


    We openly refer to the United States of America as a "democracy". Nothing, technically, could be farther from the truth. The US is a democracy inasmuch as it is truly capitalist.

    To the other is the People's Republic of China.

    How about the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics?

    Remember, the US "democracy" is actually, technically, a "republic".

    So what happens if we add the US death toll over the same period to these two "republics", and then go forth finding other countries that use the word "republic" in their title or system of government?

    Remember that neither Communism nor Socialism are actual governing structures. The USSR and PRC both claim(ed) to be republics. A republic is a form of government.

    I would suggest, DJ Supreme, that in addition to your confusion about what is socialism and what is communism, you might wish to consider the difference between economic theories and governing systems. Stalinism, for instance, is a governing system that comes up in various modifications. One notorious, recently-deposed Stalinist was Saddam Hussein, which is ironic given that Americans likened the Iraqi dictator to Hitler.


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  23. guthrie paradox generator Registered Senior Member

    Ohh dear, anti communism. how passe.

    I coudl go on about the dead in wars started for the greed of the ruling classes and owners, or the workers killedin unsafe working conditions, or the slaves shipped to the USA to work, or the deaths attributed to religious wars, or the intolerance of others.

    Why not just admit you'd prefer to be red or dead?

    You do know that welfare statism, like you have in Denmark, and keeps unemployed people alive, is a leftie sort of thing?

    besides, as far as I know, real communism was only achieved a few times in Russia after the revolution, and in Spain during the civil war, but then was crushed by the forces of reaction. Calling a dictatorship communism is jsut one big act of camouflage. Its always handy to have a big bogey man to attack.
    For much of the early 20th century, it was communists working to organise to get better pay and conditions for working men and women in the USA.

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