Better than who? The ones who fared worse? Because manic depressives cannot think they can get better?
Their belief. But in most cases a person is brought to believe in a cure external to themselves. This idea is common to certain religions; is common to our society. The Secret is an attempt at putting the control back into the hands of you and me. Where it belongs - but hell, I cannot fathom a single movie-watching experience instilling such a paradigm shift in self-perception so as to self-generate something like health. Its years, ages of social & cultural conditioning which needs to be flipped on its head. (Sorry. The conversation moved too fast. I typed too slow)
No manic depressives have no control over their thoughts. The findings on breast cancer say 'no signs of benefit':shrug:
(No problem) I agree. I just thought its a fascinating concept. After all, the mind is a powerful instrument. We are what we think.
It says this: A total of 166 women were classed as having "fighting spirit", in that they took a more positive approach to the disease, perhaps seeing it as a challenge rather than a burden. No signs of a benefit However, this had no bearing on the outcome of their illness, according to researchers. The only instance in which mental state appeared to affect outcome was for those with the most negative thoughts - these appeared to worsen the chances of survival. Dr Molly Watson, who led the study, said more research was needed to investigate why feeling helpless and hopeless appeared to reduce a breast cancer patient's chances of survival. "One possible explanation is that their state of mind might influence their immune system or stress hormones which could have a negative effect on their health "Another theory is that patients who feel helpless may be less motivated to make sure they get the best available medical treatment or take good care of themselves." She said that the finding showed that those who were feeling the most down needed more emotional support not better thoughts Sam.
I'd say not faring worse is a positive significant benefit. But what would I know? What was their standard for assessing better or worse?
In every study of a new medication or treatment we must go to great pains to avoid the placebo effect. I think there may be a huge untapped potential within us to regulate our bodies down to the cellular level. How else can you explain the fact that a given number of people will respond to almost any treatment just because they believe it will work? I use this fact all the time in my practice. I can be very convincing and tell my patient (in a very authoritative voice) that, with this treatment, they should expect to get at least a little better every day and that they should be completely cured within a week or so. I then tell them that, on the off chance they find themselves getting worse, to contact me immediately. Now it may also be significant that I don't rely on the placebo effect alone, but give my patients the very best treatment available. But belief definitely has an effect. As to the general idea of "The Secret", I think there may be something to it. Consider that our conscious mind is only a very small part of our brain. Consider how akward we are when we learn a new activity and must use our conscious mind to determine our every movement. But once we really learn the activity, it's no longer our conscious mind at work and we perform the activity smoothly and perfectly. Now consider what may happen when we are constantly walking around with negative thoughts. Our unconscious mind may take these thoughts as commands and begin working on ways to make them reality. Positive thoughts may work the same way. How many times have you had an idea flash into your head fully formed? Where did it come from? Your unconscious mind which had been working on the problem at the request of your conscious mind. So suppose you use "the secret" to attract a mate. Your positive thoughts may well cause your unconscious mind to improve your posture, to increase your metabolism to decrease your weight. Perhaps your complexion will improve. Your general feeling of well being and confidense may well improve. Suddenly, you're more attractive to the opposite sex: mission accomplished. As to the quantum mechanical magic aspects of "the secret" well, who knows. Perhaps Sam might let us in on the results of her experiment. Better yet, fill us in from the begining. Art Bell has done experiments where he has the audience pray for rain and experiecned positive results.
Well Sam (or Mad) you can read the article. When it comes to 'positive thinking' having a better attitude is useful in life is it not? But its a far cry from saying 'the mind can convert thought into things' and say that what one means by this is that if one thinks 'good' thoughts often enough they will only attract 'good' things. Life offers an array of circumstances where although its nice and helpful to have a positive attitude such an attitude will not alter events.
Sure, sure. Of course I'm not buying into this thing 100%, I'm just saying there is a kernal of truth here. I'm sure you've met really negative people who seem to just attract bad things, and positive people who seem to live charmed lives. Is their attitude a cause or an effect? Is it both?
Are you saying that maniacs (those suffering from manic depression or bipolar disease) are immune to the placebo effect? Take a group of them, give them sugar pills and tell them that the pills are the latest and greatest new biotech drug and some will get better. The question is: why?
Yes I agree there is a kernel of truth but listen to the link from the film Sam posted. There is a story of a gay guy who is beaten up and heckled because he is gay, they say he listens to the tapes and within 6 to 8 weeks a 'miracle' occurs, they say all the people in his work office who were harassing him either transfered, quit working for the company or left him alone...all due to the fact that he was 'thinking' this, all because of 'his' thoughts. This is when it all becomes a mumbo jumbo selling point. To tell you the truth there are negative people who are rich and have families who love them no matter how arrogant, or negative they may be and there are 'nice' people who have good outlooks who have a myriad of problems that they struggle and smile through. There are too many variables to attribute their circumstances to ones attitude. You know they say in the film that 1% of the worlds wealth belongs to a few people and its because "they know the 'secret'" Well it doesn't take into account random things like the economic strata of ones birth, the royal family of England nor Paris Hilton have to 'think' their money into being it was inherited along with the INFORMATION on how to generate more wealth plus the ACCESS of networking community to keep the wealth. If what they say is true then I say the Palestinians are having a terrible time because of their negative thoughts and not because of Israelis and Israelis have a stable wealthy society because they have better thoughts. The worlds poor are just bogging themselves down with bad thoughts and the wealthy know how to think 'positively' about wealth. So fuck em' if they can't get their 'mind' together ya know cause they are not taking positive mental responsibility for what they 'attract' into their livesPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I know I'm poking fun but you see where I am going with it. You draw ALL of your illness never mind genetics. You draw your enemies so victims of rape and anything else should take responsibility for attracting aggression. etc etc etc. How about that Sam? Maybe the people in Afghanistan and Iraq should have thought better thoughts and not attract american bombs?:shrug: I mean collectively they MUST be doing something wrong because it was always in their hands, or sorry not in their hands in their 'thoughts and feelings'. Oh yeah and if only the schizophrenic would just think healthy thoughts then they wouldn't be hallucinating!!!!Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Well I'm open show me how lithium and other drugs administered to manic depressives are no longer used in favor of placebo's and are living well without any spirals into extremes?
Edelman, S., Craig, A.R. & Kidman, A.D. 2000, 'Can Psychotherapy Increase the Survival Time of Cancer Patients?', Journal of Psychosomatic Research, vol. 49, no. 2, pp. 149-156. Objective: The aim of this paper was to review the evidence regarding the possibility of a relationship between psychological intervention and survival time of cancer patients. Method: A literature search was conducted using CD ROM databases to identify studies which have evaluated the effects of psychological interventions on the survival time of cancer patients. The identified studies were critically reviewed. Results: Eight studies which used scientifically acceptable methodology to examine this question were identified. Three of these studies found evidence for a relationship between psychological intervention and patients' survival time, while five did not. Methodological issues and potentially confounding factors are discussed. Conclusion: To date, a direct relationship between psychological intervention and patient survival time has not been conclusively demonstrated. Large-scale replication studies which are currently under way will provide more conclusive evidence on this question within the next few years. (link) Lemon, J., Edelman, S. & Kidman, A.D. 2004, 'Perceptions of the mind-cancer relationship among the public, cancer patients and oncologists', Journal of Psychosocial Oncology, vol. 21, no. 4, pp. 43-58. The view that psychological factors pla a role in the onset and progression of cancern has been promoted widely int he popular media. The present study assessed the prevalence of this view. The respondents - 527 members of the public, 239 cancern patients, and 117 medical practitioners working in oncology - completed a survey questionnaire consisting of three questions in a yes/no format on whether they believed psychological factors can affect the cause, progresion and cure of cancer. Each question was followed by a Lickert-scale question asking respondents to estimate the trength of such an effect. The majority of respondents in the public sample endorsed the proposition thast psychological factors affect cause (60%), progression (71%) and cure (72%). A larger proportion of patients endorsed the proposition for progression (85%) and cure (86%). Oncologists were less likely to endorse it for cause (12%) and cure (26%). These relationships also held for estimates of the strength of the effect. In the public sample, females and respondents with a university education provided higher estimates of the effects of phsycological factors on cancer. These difference were not evident in the patient sample. Given that the scientific evidence to support the "mind-cancer" view is equivocal, the question of whether these peceptions should be challeged needs to be addressed. (link) Stephen JE, Rahn M, Verhoef M, Leis, "What is the state of the evidence on the mind-cancer survival question, and where do we go from here? A point of view." Support Care Cancer. 2007 Aug;15(8):923-30. Epub 2007 Jun 26. There is long history of anecdote and surmise linking psychosocial factors to cancer incidence and survival. However, over the past three decades, an increasing number of rigorous studies have investigated the possibility of a mind-cancer survival connection. The objective of this paper is (1) to review the past 30 years of psycho-oncology research on the mind-cancer survival question, (2) to review the methodological debate and interpretations of the research findings, and (3) to consider future research directions. MAIN RESULTS: Over the past three decades, a small number of studies have been published. Some observational and quasi-experimental studies suggest the possibility that coping and psychological factors may influence disease outcomes, but clinical trials suggest that psychosocial interventions do not prolong survival. Methodological comment and interpretation about the significance of these trials vary. Some researchers view the mind-cancer survival question as resolved and negative, whereas others identify conceptual and methodological challenges and view the possible impact of psychosocial factors on survival as simply unproven. We take the position that the question is unanswered. CONCLUSION: Recommended future research directions include: (1) more trials based on testable theories, targeted interventions, and greater specificity in the measurement model and (2) new research questions and more rigorous observational, prospective, and longitudinal studies, case studies, mixed methods, and innovative design approaches being developed by complementary and alternative medicine researchers. Further research is warranted on the mind-cancer survival question. (link link)
Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! "bad bad children" said lucysnow
i know you are trolling with disingenuous rhetoric and inexcusable cheap shots it was fun tho to watch you backpeddle and squirm
Indeed, modern medical investigators have often regarded the placebo response as a nuisance. (link) ja it would have a negative impact on profit margins, would it not? The Placebo Prescription Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
poor sam the hounds of war pursue her at every nook and cranny in sci you can run but you cant hide! muslim strike 1! woman strike 2 darkie strike 3 indian strike 4 lucysnow to sam.....stalk you laaaater!
