The Quranic principle of "honoring Man", where the recital is knowledge

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by cleese, Jun 24, 2012.

  1. cleese Registered Senior Member

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    69
    sir
    we mix silliness with thought.
    crisis are the only way that make the Good called "pushing human limits further". if the ancient egyptians had not suffered a lot from drought, they would have never invented "the Nile Measurement System". this was the first step of mathematics in ancient Egypt.

    in Amazon jungles, as example, people have all food types they can even dream of, in all seasons. they have self ventilated caves, perfectly fertile soil. what has been the consequences of that? they are still savage and barbarian as they had been a million years ago. why ? because no crisis (Evil) provoked them to exert extreme mind and physical effort to overcome the odds.

    what you call Evil, is the perfect stimulae for jumping up to a higher level in advancement and civilization. if every thing comes easily, if you live for ever without sickness, you would have never exerted any effort that made our world as it looks today.

    one last thing. yes you may be able to cut off a human's arms. but this is exactly what gives you freedom of choice. if no Evil around. no Good around. if no dirt around at all, no advantage would be for Boss, findi, herrira, all other perfumes .


    think
     
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  3. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    Why can't God simply jump to the end result of civilization and advancement? Is he less than all-powerful?

    Follow your line of reasoning, and it's logical that he made us initially as dumb as monkeys, so that we could progress to our present state.
     
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  5. cleese Registered Senior Member

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    69
    sir
    i have never said he made the origin of the humans as a monkey. i said he created him a marvelous being, taught him (his self) the alphabet of knowledge "the names of every thing".

    if the omnipotence jumped to the end as you call it, what is your role in this life? where is your creativity and your own creation?

    what are the benefits of such mind qualities and powers?
    again, we choose - willingly - the example of the savage tribes. again, we renounce our freedom of making our own destiny with our own hands.
    if there had been no (great) life tragedies, there would have been no (great) utopias.
    facing the odds, living the crisis, witnessing the atrocities, sharpens the humans' abilities to the extremes. what a sorrow if this does not happen.
    if so, what is the role of humans in this world?
    eat then go to toilets?
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2012
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  7. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    You make a negative judgement on them because they need nothing but what God gave them? No solutions are required if you have no problems. How long has our way of life lasted? A couple thousand years at the most.
     
  8. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    53,966
    Could not god have provided to us the same satisfaction without the suffering? You already said we didn't start out like monkeys. Why the head start there and not elsewhere?
     
  9. cleese Registered Senior Member

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    69
    how could you dare to say this ?
    you want the joy of building such a great pyramid, without exerting your effort in such a marvelous geometric designs?

    you want the joy of flying from paris to london, without exerting your efforts in designing, trying, driving the planes ?

    do you deserve then any joy of life? are you worthy then of any achievements?
     
  10. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    OK, here's a good question. If evil, suffering, and various challenges are good for the development of mankind, why create a guide like the Quran or the Bible? Wouldn't it be better for us to work out problems for ourselves? And thus to become stronger in the process?
     
  11. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    53,966
    No, I'm saying why couldn't God give us both at the same time? Why can't he just jump to the end point of an advanced civilization compared to which we are the monkeys?

    It would be similar to how some religious people say the Earth is 5,000 years old. When we point out that the light from distant galaxies is already many billions of years old, they say that God created the light as is, already on it's way. Or that he created dinosaur fossils with the appearance of being millions of years old, even though he created them recently.
     
  12. cleese Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    69
    sir,
    again, i ask you kindly to refer back to the duality of the (machine & manual). according to your wonder, should all manufacturers stop providing their customers with the product's manual, letting them floundering from A to Z, without any help?
     
  13. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    53,966
    If the goal were to foster creativity, intelligence, and strength, (as you explained was the origin of evil) then yes. If you want a child to be an engineer, give him the Lego™ set without instructions!

    We know mankind is at least 200,000 years old. Where was the manual? We have not changed substantially since then (in terms of cognitive ability), why did these books only come to us after we discovered agriculture, and had the time to develop writing and specialized skills? ...The very time when we need it less?
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2012
  14. cleese Registered Senior Member

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    69
    read the comment below
     
  15. cleese Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    69
    sir
    i am asking you kindly to study the whole picture.
    it is a totally different paradigm. different in its view of : purposes, origins and consequences. so you can not copy & paste your dogmas here.
    the first of the holy books - according to Islam - was revealed after ten generations of the first Human (Adam). it was revealed to prophet Noah.
    between Adam and Noah, all the 9 generations acted according to the revelation revealed to Adam.
    Adam - as you seen from the article - was well educated first human. perfectly aware of the purpose of his existence.
    he was not an animal, he was a perfectly made & educated being, prepared for such a great role to play in life.
    please, study Islam from a good resource, so you have - in a very simple way- the answers of all your wonders.
    this religion is not about preaching, it is about asking practical questions, and about providing perfect answers. you just need to take time studying. forgive me to say that .
    study the whole picture first. it is simple
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2012
  16. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    I appreciate your patience with this atheist, but your narrative does not respect the ability of mankind to acquire knowledge. Knowledge like there was no first man. Evolution is a fact. If Islam teaches that there was, then it is false.
     
  17. kx000 Valued Senior Member

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    5,017
    I've pondered this. We must learn, friend. Who knows where we are going, how could you know that for this to happen would be a good thing?
     
  18. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    53,966
    I guess you could boil it down to one question, why aren't we living in heaven right now? What's the point of all our suffering?
     
  19. kx000 Valued Senior Member

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    5,017
    Maybe a moment in time to learn to grow will be worth it once we are living eternally.
     
  20. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    53,966
    Maybe that growth could have been incorporated into ourselves from the beginning.
     
  21. kx000 Valued Senior Member

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    5,017
    Then we would be genetics upon how God viewed us. He would have wanted us to prove it, not go off his word.
     
  22. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    20,285
    Or it could all be made up stories early humans told one another to help explain things they didn't know at the time. Islanders often thought the Gods lined shells and rocks along the shore according to size in neat little rows, we now know *gasp* they're carried there by waves.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2012
  23. cleese Registered Senior Member

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    69
    sir
    the main point - in my opinion of course - is that: bible depicts a scene where the biblical God designated angels with weapons and swords of fire, to protect the what so-called "tree of knowledge", and to deprive the first human from eating from it. simply indicating, to deprive him from acquiring knowledge.
    while there is a comprehensive paradigm, starts with stating the following :
    هُوَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ لَكُم مَّا فِي الْأَرْ*ضِ جَمِيعًا ثُمَّ اسْتَوَىٰ إِلَى السَّمَاءِ فَسَوَّاهُنَّ سَبْعَ سَمَاوَاتٍ ۚ وَهُوَ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ
    he is who created all what is in earth for you.2/29
    then after such subjection of the whole universe mentioned in the main article, he provides that first human with the tool (knowledge) with which he utilizes that subjection. so, the Creator in that totally different paradigm, willingly educates the first human the alphabet of knowledge, the names of every thing.
    the subjection of the whole existence, and the knowledge. what an honor?!.
    this is the main point. to compare the two different scenes. if you kept restricted to your doctrine (atheism) without even noticing the indication of that beautiful dialogue (where freedom of expression is embodied with no limits even between the submissive angels and the Creator him self), you are unfairly treating the context.
    really, what a perfect set of values that Islamic paradigm states ...!
    thanks
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2012

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