The place of the psyche in QM

Discussion in 'General Science & Technology' started by Reiku, Dec 5, 2011.

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  1. Reiku Banned Banned

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    Cosmic bruises. Evidence, not proof.
     
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  3. C C Consular Corps - "the backbone of diplomacy" Valued Senior Member

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    My apologies. It was only necessary to point out we've been in a somewhat similar situation before. Who knows, the universes of a "multiverse" might be re-classified to "subverses" or somesuch ludicrousness if solid evidence accumulated for them. With the "multiverse" collection then being renamed as universe, the new standard for it (an "everything" definition becoming consistent with itself again).
     
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  5. Pincho Paxton Banned Banned

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    You seem opposed to evidence for some reason. You still have to account for the bruising in whatever theory you come up with.
     
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  7. Reiku Banned Banned

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    I don't think it is proof. I will admit it is an evidence. I am against multiverse theory for many reasons. I am pro-single-universe.

    I share the same idea's as smolin.
     
  8. Pincho Paxton Banned Banned

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    What reasons?
     
  9. Reiku Banned Banned

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    Wiki, on Lee Smolin

    ''Smolin does not believe that quantum mechanics is a "final theory":

    "I am convinced that quantum mechanics is not a final theory. I believe this because I have never encountered an interpretation of the present formulation of quantum mechanics that makes sense to me. I have studied most of them in depth and thought hard about them, and in the end I still can't make real sense of quantum theory as it stands."[11]

    In a 2009 article, Smolin has articulated the following philosophical views (the sentences in italics are quotations):

    There is only one universe. There are no others, nor is there anything isomorphic to it. Smolin denies the existence of a "timeless" multiverse. Neither other universes nor copies of our universe — within or outside — exist.[clarification needed] No copies can exist within the universe, because no subsystem can model precisely the larger system it is a part of. No copies can exist outside the universe, because the universe is by definition all there is. This principle also rules out the notion of a mathematical object isomorphic in every respect to the history of the entire universe, a notion more metaphysical than scientific.
    All that is real is real in a moment, which is a succession of moments. Anything that is true is true of the present moment. Not only is time real, but everything that is real is situated in time. Nothing exists timelessly.
    Everything that is real in a moment is a process of change leading to the next or future moments. Anything that is true is then a feature of a process in this process causing or implying future moments. This principle incorporates the notion that time is an aspect of causal relations. A reason for asserting it is that anything that existed for just one moment, without causing or implying some aspect of the world at a future moment, would be gone in the next moment. Things that persist must be thought of as processes leading to newly changed processes. An atom at one moment is a process leading to a different or a changed atom at the next moment.
    Mathematics is derived from experience as a generalization of observed regularities, when time and particularity are removed. Under this heading, Smolin distances himself from mathematical platonism, and gives his reaction to Eugene Wigner's "The Unreasonable Effectiveness of Mathematics in the Natural Sciences".

    Smolin is non-religious, believing that "there never was a God, no pilot who made the world by imposing order on chaos and who remains outside, watching and proscribing." [12] He also opposes the anthropic principle, which he claims "cannot help us to do science." [13]''
     
  10. Pincho Paxton Banned Banned

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    You base your thinking on philosophy? That's not really a respectable approach to science. You need real facts, not just a thought. This guy is just talking like Jonathan Ross in a chat show. You can't call that 'A Reason'
     
  11. Reiku Banned Banned

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    There are no real facts to multiple universes either. In fact, any speculation brought forth from multiverses so far only suits a philosophical understanding of the wave function. There is arguably an evidence, which could have been caused by a number of things no doubt. Since we cannot infer exactly what happened at the beginning of time, then cosmic bruises could be an artefact of something we have not fathomed.
     
  12. Pincho Paxton Banned Banned

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    I posted about flat areas created by muti-verses in 2005, I even made a 3D model to show people. I said how they occur. When you predict something, and it is found later you have fathomed it already. It's not the same as finding something and later working it out. I was quite detailed about it, and suggested that there could be a hole in one of them, and the hole would have a flow into it, and the flow would be visible, and the flow was found as well.
     
  13. Reiku Banned Banned

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    I'd say it is still a stretch, considering we really nothing other than the mathematical disciple of the universe at time zero.

    To be honest, I will predict something now. We have observed the universe to an early degree. What will happen if we observe the universe to times which contradict when the universe began?


    I think this will happen. I think the universe had a beginning, but might be longer than we had ever fathomed.
     
  14. Pincho Paxton Banned Banned

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    I cover all that as well, I go back to nothing. But never-mind, we should talk about consciousness else we might get in trouble.
     
  15. Reiku Banned Banned

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    Indeed. Or maybe not... some mods here don't even mind deterring the discussion from the OP lol
     
  16. kwhilborn Banned Banned

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    I dunno, consciousness may have its own space–time system and its own system of ontologically independent and spatiotemporally organized events (sensations and images) that have as much right to be called ‘material’ as do protons and electrons.
     
  17. Reiku Banned Banned

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    The objects objectively have quite a lot of rights to be as physical as the objects inside. Whilst what we see is not the true objective physical world at large, the brain does one thing that ties in a physical transition: that transition being the ability to touch an object, ''feel'' the tangibility of an object and tie it in with the object being observed.

    Ironically, when you posted this, I was in progress of writing how the differences between the two worlds of the objective and the subjective. Odd eh? :shrug:

    Maybe our brains are quantum entangled

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    I do however completely agree with the spacetime assertion. You could model special relativity very well under the perception of a human being. If you can model it this way, then I have even asked the question, ''is consciousness a spacetime phenomenon?''

    If the brain can create the perception of time (through the suprachiasmatic nucleus, which is a gene which regulates time perception) and if we ''see'' a space inside our perception equally, then both are also unified as a spacetime.

    In fact, time may not even exist objectively according to some [physical idea's] by top scientists. If this is true, what we have mistaken a single continuum spacetime, is in fact just an artefact of consciousness alone.

    I answered you a while back. Is this you conceding that physics has a place for consciousness, or that you are still laboring under the misconception that consciousness is a matter of magic and faries?

    May I also add, which I never did before, but your dog act's in behaviour of packs. This involves an alpha dog, or leader. running about in the middle of the night won't serve anyone, especially your dog, apart from maybe some mythical diety who appreciates those things lol

    your dog does not come to the same conclusions as an intelligently aware human does. Indeed, dogs are aware of pain ect, not of their surroundings and by nature not of other's thoughts.

    (Thoughts meaning, there is a complex evaluation of behaviour. Ape's manage to understand behaviour arguably better than humans do lol )

    The reason why is because apes, dogs, any animal is not bound by behavioural society in their fullest. We do. We don't appreciate at most times, behaviour which does not appease the norm. Dogs don't care if they shit on the carpet, as much as ape's don't care they molest or even murder a baby.
     
  18. kwhilborn Banned Banned

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    The last post I typed was pretty much word for word Hawkingsexcept the first two words "I dunno".

    I dunno,
    :bravo:

    I was interested to see how many arguments it might raise. Hmmm

    Looks like you are entangled with Stephen Hawkings Mister
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2011
  19. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Mister:

    Please think about what you want to post before posting many posts in a row.

    I can understand the odd afterthought, or multiple posts where you are replying to a number of different people. But 8 posts in a row of general commentary is a bit much. Please avoid this in future.
     
  20. kwhilborn Banned Banned

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    or use edit option on your previous post
     
  21. Reiku Banned Banned

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    Let's bring this back to life. Let's discuss a new topic for consciousness, like the dynamics. Is consciousness a material phenomenon, as Fred A Wolf has conjectured, is consciousness like a field which surrounds matter?
     
  22. Pincho Paxton Banned Banned

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    How many consciousness threads do you want? If you haven't found your answer yet you never will.
     
  23. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    Not physics, biology. Obviously everything comes down to quarks, bosons and leptons if you analyze it in enough detail, and that's physics. But our thoughts are not processed at femtosecond speeds even though there are electrical signals involved, so I'm sure consciousness will be satisfactorily explained by the next generation or two of biologists.
    Huh? You must be thinking of someone else. I'm the man who defines the basic premise of science thus:
    The natural universe is a closed system whose behavior can be predicted by theories derived logically from empirical observation of its past and present behavior.​
    There is no supernatural universe full of fantastic creatures and other forces that whimsically (and often peevishly) perturb the behavior of the natural universe, making a mockery of science. No magic, no fairies, no gods.

    You seem even less able to recognize sarcasm when you see it than I am. My wife will cringe when I tell her there are two of us.
    You don't have to explain dogs to this dog lover, breeder, and owner of ten. I frequently explain to people that the reason we have so many instincts that work against the maintenance of civilization is that civilization is herd-social behavior. Once our ancestral species developed flint blades we became first scavengers, gleaning the shreds of meat off the bones left by the predators, then predators, hunting down our own meat, and finally the planet's apex predators, eating both bears and sharks. We became pack-social predators like wolves and lions, and retained that social organization until the Agricultural Revolution a mere 12KYA. That's only a few hundred generations ago, not enough time to evolve new instincts. We're still pack-social predators and we still have to remind ourselves that other tribes are not hated competitors sneaking into our hunting territory. My big bitch with the Abrahamic religions is that they teach their people that they are just a little bit better than the rest of us, reinforcing our species's atavistic tribal instinct at a time when that's the last thing we need!
    I think you're selling dogs short. We've been selectively breeding them for more than ten thousand generations and they are now significantly different from wolves physically, mentally and emotionally--enough to be classified as a distinct subspecies Canis lupus familiaris. I've argued that since their short breeding cycle gave them one and a half orders of magnitude more generations to adapt to civilization, they're better adapted to it than we are! I would say they out-do us in getting along with others (even other species), respecting authority, and following rules. And yes, it's not all that difficult to teach them that it's important not to crap on the rug.
    Consciousness is just our name for a bunch of signals flowing through our synapses. I suppose you could call it "material," since it's basically electrochemical.

    I don't see how it could qualify as a field, since the basic definition of a field in physics is something with remote effects. The first-order effects of consciousness are very spatially constrained. The second-order effects are clearly outside the realm of physics and the other hard sciences.
     
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