The perfect Society...

Discussion in 'Science & Society' started by NenarTronian, Jun 25, 2002.

  1. Tirstan Registered Member

    Utopia? What is a utopia, everyone has a different view on exactly what this would be? Every individual has a different view. So should we not explore what these views are, or better yet, try and define a Utopian view that satisfies the apparent meaning of our existence.

    What seperates humans from other animals? Our intellect, opposable thumbs, and communication abilities have enabled generations to discover new things about our world or at least to speculate on what natural accurances might mean. Every generation makes a contribution to the knowledge of society. "Standing on the shoulders of giants."

    (Do you think a child taken from a tribe of early men and placed in a modern environment would learn any slower than a child born today? Are we not products of our environment?)

    What do we have in common with other animals? Our hunger, desire to reproduce, and instinct (list not inclusive). One may also argue that hunger and disire to reproduce are instinctual desires as well. They do seem so. Wanting to eat something seems no less real than wanting to breath. Fortunatly, we do not have to eat as often as we breath.

    Birds build nests. Ants build hills....... This is instinctual behavior carried in the animals DNA. Possibly the result of a trial and error animal behavior where an animal that did not have these traits parrished (survival of fittest). Has this occured in humans, or has the fact that we adapt our environment to suit our needs reduced this affect?

    Humans create a false environment to live in and some governments strive to provide enough resources to keep people fat, dumb, and happy. Television is a perfect example of a means to pacificity in most cases. Wasting time watching uneducational shows that distract from reality. Our reality is the biggest distraction from the reality that exists around us. It has probably never been so hard to achieve a spiritual enlightenment as it is now given that we have never before had so many and such elaborate distractions.

    If we assume that it is very plausable that our view on reality is scued based on our imaginary worlds, what remains true. Instinctual needs? One in particular seems to be of utmost importance, our desire to create. Humans want to be produce, but more often than not people are content with whatever they are offered by the existence they know.

    If we cannot tailor a utopia to an individual, could we not still tailor a utopia for humanity. A utopia based at least partially on current capitalistic views. Throwing away Adam Smith and other solid economic theory would be like refusing to acknowlege the benifits of algebra. We should learn from history.

    Utopia for me would be a society that harbors and incourages the persuit of knowledge while providing for a continuously improving living condition. Education should be free. Wealth should be based on value to the community and most importantly all positions of weath should be achievable by any member of society who posesses the mental and physical capacities necessary to preform the task.

    The evolution of microsocieties, small communities of people of different trades, who trade services between members to increase the group wealth.
    Coops between microsocieties would further increase the wealth of each microsociety.

    I would also like to see the reemergence of an apprentice system for training people, especially in the technologies where working with the technology promotes a faster learning curve reducing overall investment and leading to faster productivity. Imagine you are just getting out of high school . You want to study information technology and you have an opportunity to go live with a community of individuals currently working in the field. Invaluable....

    I have quite a few ideas, but I spent so much time thinking about the intro that i have burnt myself out before I have actually delved very deep into the topic. I'll write more later.

    Hope I have given you something to think about.
    Even if it is just wonder at my misspellings and my queer usage of the english language.
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  3. kmguru Staff Member

    Not exactly. There are differences between human sub groups just as there are differences between German shepards and other dogs as to how quickly one group can be trained verses other. That does not mean, one dog is lesser than the other dog group....otherwise, the dog group that does not have value will not survive over thousands of years.

    While that difference may not be apparent in a generic simple activity, it does become apparent in many fields - from basket ball to engineering to computer programming...each group has their strength and weaknesses. We need all to survive the next millenia.
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  5. GRO$$ Registered Senior Member

    Good lord, this thread is old...
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  7. kmguru Staff Member

    I will take your advice. We are designing large scale sustainable economic development for several African countries. We are thinking both Micro and Macro-enterprises so as to create full employment in a very short time.

    If you have ideas to pass on, and they are good, we would love to hire you as an advisor. One constraint: You ideas must use tools and technology to amplify a person's productivity to world standards or better. The technology must be self-sustaining from low-tech to high-tech such that in case of a disaster, the society still survives. But the high-tech portion should have maximum productivity to cover the inefficiencies of the low-tech mix. The per capita GDP (the quality of life equivalent) must be equal to any developed country.
  8. kmguru Staff Member


    But the idea for a perfect society is not...I mean, we are still searching....correct?

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  9. valich Registered Senior Member

    What does ths have to do with a "perfect society"? You are trying to show that some animals and some humans are faster to learn and easier to train? Perfection can never be attained in a society because each individual has their own idea of what perfection is. And the entire concept of what is "perfect" in Nature is something that constantly evolves over time - necessarily - to corespond with our evolving environment.
  10. kmguru Staff Member

    I was commenting to Tirstan's comment - if you care to read at the forum...

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  11. Xylene Valued Senior Member

    The only problem with the perfect utopia is Humans--forgive my cynicism

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  12. Tirstan Registered Member

    This is the reason I am posting. I need more work in my communication skills. My idea was not expressed properly. It is not complete. I recognize the differences in learning potential within sub groups does not have a large quantifiable result in the overall survivability of a sub species. Not like say a genetic mutation in a species that gives it an advantage providing access to a food supply unavailable to other members of the same species. This would give the mutated species a larger food supply enabling a larger population probably increasing the range(territory animal species occupies).

    The idea behind my statement:
    Originally Posted by Tirstan
    (Do you think a child taken from a tribe of early men and placed in a modern environment would learn any slower than a child born today? Are we not products of our environment?)
    The availability of knowledge has had a much greater effect on our society when compared to the differences between sub species learning capability.
    We have not changed much physically.

    If early man, not cromagnum man, but the first members of our genus? or species? ( not sure which. man but not accounting for different races ), had access to the amount of knowledge available today his society would be similair. It is the accumulated knowledge that seperates our society from that of early man and makes humans unique among the animal knigdom.

    I am searching for a base or bases on which to help more acurately define a natural purpose. A utopia should promote the natural instincts of man (example. to create), since promoting an individualistic view of utopia would only be utopia for one individual. The natural instincts of man promoted would be generally agreed upon to be instincts that benifit society while also deemphasising instincts generally agreed upon to be detrimental to society. Benificial instincts would emphasize outcomes that result from an individual exibiting the qualities of truth, loyalty, learning. The quest for wealth cannot be subtracted from any social equation. That's why true communism does not exist, because someone with power eventually gets greedy. There must always be a benefit for an action that benefits society.

    If a leader makes changes that results in a greater increase in a microsocieties wealth the leader should be compensated in relation to the degree of the change in wealth. This works to encourage beneficial change while capitalizing on individualistic desires. Is that not why capitalism is successful? Because it takes greed into account. Unfortunately it heavily enforces greed and is neglectful with regards to the promotion of society.

    my idea is still not even close to complete and i am sure i have created a vast array of divergent ideas that were unintended.

    One of the best acceptable practices for dog training involves pinning a puppy down by the neck when he exhibits an undesirable behavior. This has excellent results when compared to striking an animal. If a puppy misbehaves in a pack the alpha male will pin the animal down to show his dislike. The puppy naturally understands this behavior. Animals treated with this technique will generally be much more responsive. You have identified yourself as the leader and dogs understand this. What natural understandings do humans have? Promote beneficial natural behavior and it will accelerate the success curve of individuals and thereby society.
  13. kmguru Staff Member

    Great post Tirstan.

    The basal natural instinct of humans are controlled by other natural instincts such as not to express itself. For example, in a mating scenario, humans are supposed to get attracted from the chemical composition of the pheromones. Each pheromone has specific characteristics. However we neutralize or cover up that activity. The result is miscues and confusion. You select your mate based on what he or she is is wearing on a opposite body. Results are disasters as we have 63% divorce rate.

    That is partly true. Those societies that value knowledge and innovation prosper and those who do not - wither. Based on the works of Professor Jared Diamond, I came to the conclusion that when a society peaks in engineering and technology, that coincides with wealth and power. Then the society fills up with dumb and greedy people that rise to the top and can not provide the required knowledge to maintain their superiority. These people are usually law givers, MBAs, "C" students and priests who try to control the the society but fail. The availability of knowledge is no guarantee that a society will prosper.

    History is full of such examples: Greeks, Romans, Chinese Dynasty, Indian kings, Argentina etc. Now it is the American Society which helplessly looking at the mass evacuation of production facilities to India and China.

    The sad part is, the knowledge is still available to solve our complex problems like Terrorism, Economic Collapse and Natural Disasters. Yet the organizations who have money for this, give it to the people who can not produce the results. From department of Homeland Security to FEMA to DOJ to National Science Foundation. Cronism abounds...

    I was involved to solve Argentina's 60% poor issues at the Governor's level. The people at the high up were so arogant that their laws did not allow to work with an American company to solve their problem. Yet the common people expect so much from the Bush visit that they rioted.

    I have worked with Greece and Italy with similar results. That is once glorified countries now choke with knowledge.

    Without innovators, we will not even come close to a perfect society. That is the key.
  14. Tirstan Registered Member

    The idea of large-scale sustainable economic development is very intriguing. Beautiful example of complexity, much more information is needed to define specifics of micro societies (Information with regards to resource availability). What natural resources are available for economic exploitation? Are there specific geographical characteristics that make the land unique (Rivers? Waterfalls? Is it windy? Thinking of hydro or wind power. Is the region safe and does it provide attractions that might attract tourists?) What types of materials can be developed in each micro economy?

    Redundancies must be built into both the micro and macro societies to diversify resource base. Account for crop failures by diversifying crops grown. Account for a loss of value of a resource by developing multiple resources.

    Starting with the development of the most profitable resources to acquire more material wealth to be used to improve infrastructure (power, sewage, electricity, police stations, fire stations and most importantly schools: initial school development should concentrate on training for occupations necessary to sustain economic development with the current state of education in mind. It may be necessary to provide pictorial tutorials due to illiteracy). Once a certain economic productivity goal is realized primary and secondary education systems can then be established.

    Current methodologies used to increase productivity can be realized, but it is first necessary to define what is to be produced. Engineering principles will be needed to create machinery necessary for low cost production (the low cost of labor should also be exploited). Once a product or resource is selected a business process can be developed and workers trained.

    Obviously computer related services offer the most economic benefit (intellectual property requires no material inputs, but requires highly skilled workers). Initial development goals could be realized through outsourcing of computer related tasks until community members can replace outsourced positions.

    More info required.
  15. kmguru Staff Member

    Good post. Great minds think alike. We are in a preliminary discussion stage where I am setting up a group to do the detail design. We are collecting massive data from the statistics department and engaging the University to collect and present the data. Time flows slowly in Africa (though it takes the same 9.5 weeks to have a baby). Thanks.

    I was just reading this article in NYTimes. I hope not to make the same mistakes in my projects.
  16. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

    I am curious in what context and to what end were you involved?
    What did you do?

    As for the original question...
    A Utopian society is impossible because different people simply have different ideals about what makes society perfect.
    Moreover, why would you WANT a Utopian society?
    Any doctor will put you on Prozac if that's what you want.
    That's not what I want out of life.
    I prefer challeges and struggles.
    I prefer to experience the full gambit of human emotion.
    I want life to be difficult and hard to take.
    I want to come home after a long rough day and revel in coming home, listening to music, sloughing off the day with a good meal a good drink and a good woman.

    I think the real question should ask why so many people want to live such a sterile, emotionless, dull life.
  17. Tirstan Registered Member

    Very true.
    Priests who try to control society… Incompetent second, third, etc, etc, sons resulting from royal inbreeding who enter the clergy not seeking religious ideals, but because they will not inherit family wealth or title and seek a powerful position in society.

    The succession of an emperor…The father being a fair and just ruler does little to ensure the son has the same capabilities.

    Lawgivers…. Have very little incentive to make changes. They are already in a position of wealth and are more concerned with maters they hold of more importance, like sucking up to companies they hope to work for after their term or that offer some other personal advantage.

    So much potential is lost in the inefficiencies of bureaucracies.

    The evacuation of production facilities to India and China…
    These production jobs represent a crucial building block for developing countries where low cost labor is available. I live in Georgia and have a friend who works on roofs. My friend told me the jobs are being taken over by Mexican labor forces. Yes, my friends skills are worth less because others will perform the work for a lower cost, but I would not want to work on a roof in Georgia in the summer. He now supervises a mexican crew. The lost jobs are of a low skill level. The biggest disadvantage I see is that the loss of jobs overseas increases the distance between rich and poor domestically (shrinking the middle class), but at the same time this adds incentive to further education.
  18. Tirstan Registered Member

    Delays Hurting U.S. Rebuilding in Afghanistan

    Bureaucratic inefficiencies mixed with a serious lack of public support or apparent involvement. The mindset and expectations of the public must be addresses. Money is being thrown in the wrong directions.

    “Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime.” Feeding the hungry is a very delicate subject. Is it advantageous to provide overpopulated societies with food necessary to prevent hunger? And should we increase the supplies as the food provided enables even larger families? Birthcontrol? Where does it all end?
  19. kmguru Staff Member


    The company, based in McLean, Va., put roughly 50 foreign advisers to work in the bank and ministries in 2003 and 2004. Bearing Point and A.I.D. officials declined to give the cost, but Afghanistan's current finance minister said it was $500,000 a year for each consultant, roughly $150,000 for a consultant's salary and the rest to cover living expenses and security, and the company's overhead and profit. $500K per year per person…

    It is not so much for the consultant fees as the results. These consultants are a bunch of silo-based thinkers. So the overall results are negligible. In the end, we will end up with a different version of Talliban.
  20. Gustav Banned Banned

    i sentiments exactly!

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  21. Tirstan Registered Member

    I like that term, "silo-based thinkers". Bank and ministries? What are these people doing? Fiscal planning? Dealing with macroeconomic concers when microsociety concerns are not being met? Ministries???Preaching?
    People need to be organized into stable supporting groups. Religious concerns must be dealt with. If only to sit down with religious leaders and agree that religious matters should not conflict with the development of the economy. Everyone should have the right to believe what they want, but it should be agreed upon that if the religious groups and society produce more everyone will have more to eat and a better standard of living. Everyone wins a little bit.

    Is the purpose of reforming banking to enable more financial support for developing businesses? Where does the capital come from? Apparently not much left after paying for advisors and costs to support new businesses. Takes alot of money to build a strong society. Hard to attract foriegn investors in unstable regions. Capital must be created in the microsocieties and a portion of the profits reinvested into further development.

    Sound as if the country would be better off hiring diplomats and engineers. Diplomats to help stabilize local factions into coherent units (get the people involved in the process) and engineers to create new industry (to fuel growth) based on resources available.
  22. kmguru Staff Member

    I agree. Unfortunately these so called consultants have anything but engineering degrees and understand microenterprises. In a place like Afhghanistan, due to years of war, the society is at the hunter-gatherer and semi-agrarian level. USA does not have any consultants who understand that level, let alone, how to move them to an industrialized society.

    Without a quick microenterprise development, Afghanis will fallback to the opium production to export over $10 Billion worth stuff to Europe and North America. It has already started. Another source of income is in the terrorist industry supported by the Gulf kings.

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