The Palestinians Start To Wake Up

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Buffalo Roam, Feb 24, 2010.

  1. otheadp Banned Banned

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    They should board said flying camels and fly back to where they came from, out of Israel.
     
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  3. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Palestinians are residents who go back to neolithic times in the Levant. Polish Jews on the other hand should be in Poland. Not pretending that mythological fealty to porcine bones gives them any "rights" to move into Palestinian homes
     
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  5. kororoti Registered Senior Member

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    Interestingly, a Jewish state was part of the original goal of the mandate, which was made by the League of Nations after they won WW1.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine

    Kind of sad that that original objective has so badly failed to be brought about. The Palis objected so badly to the arrival of Jewish immigrants, and fought about it so fiercely, that they kind of sealed their own fate.


    Are you talking about the Palestinians being refugees? They're not refugees in the Palestinian portion of Israel. They're natives. They were born there, and their ancestors, back several generations. That's enough to claim native status.

    In the Eastern portion, it depends on how you interpret the change of territory:

    Here's what they had after the first war.

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    Here's what they had after the second war 1967.

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    Here's kind of a map of what things look like today.

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    I'm thinking that the West Bank was Jordan's territory prior to 1967, and that the people living there could be seen as Jordanian citizens. If they're Jordanian citizens, then Israel would be within its rights to demand that Jordan absorb them as refugees.

    At least that would have been true at the time. You can't really wait 4 decades and then start asserting a thing like that. After a while, you've got to accept that the population has naturalized to being your own country's problem.
     
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  7. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Refugees of war generally have the option to return home. This is also part of the toilet paper UNHCR which asserts that indigenous peoples have a right live in their lands.

    I don't think it is surprising that anyone would fight against a stream of refugees who move into their neighborhoods with the intention of creating a state based on their religion. What would you do if a million Kurds moved into your neighborhood to create a demographic Kurdistan based on some washed out mythology?

    In fact what would Europeans do if the people from their ex-colonies simply moved into their countries by the millions?
     
  8. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Sam, all you've demonstrated is that you are very prehensile at finding links which cast Jews in a bad light. Even the link you've mentioned - which is utterly unsupported by anything resembling an evidentiary process - makes no case as to the actual outcome of the entire fiasco - if indeed fiasco it was. You don't know whether or not the burial was hushed up, motivated out of cynicism, a state secret, a doggerel of politics, or what. Instead, you assert almost completely blindly; and you also lump all Israeli archaeologists together instead of treating the dissenting opinion as such. Is Ben-Yahuda himself no anthropologist? You slither over the facts to attempt to verify your convention of hatred. You give no facts of the case, so that we can know nothing of the actual events. Meanwhile, you blithely ignore the corporate source of the article: a fellow whose word you otherwise blast. Daniel Pipes' Middle East Forum.

    Religious superiority was an implicit function of Islamic Palestinian domination of the area for over 1400 years. It would be hard to deny this.

    On the basis of your assumption regarding a study that found evidence of heavy introgression from Arabia. You are able to read a Discussion, seemingly, but not to objectively assess the evidence. I once read an article on the absence of impacts of coyotes on agricultural production, yet still argued for coyote culls.

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    Hand-waving is not an argument.

    Again, more hyperbole, and completely unsupported by you.
     
  9. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Two points for Geoff:

    1. The fact that it is Daniel Pipes Middle East Forum and not the Palestinian Chronicle, makes the porcine bone evidence more objective. Do you have any argument against the archaeologist of the site admitting to the porcine bones at Masada? Note that the article I linked to is a review of a publication.

    With a citation:
    [1] Nachman Ben-Yehuda, The Masada Myth: Collective Memory and Mythmaking in Israel (Madison: University of Wisconsin Press, 1995).

    And defends the archaeologist for misrepresenting his findings:

    It was indeed scientific misconduct, but clearly when one is Israeli, hasbara rules the day so that faking history becomes creating "narratives of unparalleled elegance and compelling emotional power". Lol

    2. Arab ingression of any amount does not attenuate the indigenous rights of Palestinians. In the same way that your native American wife marrying you, makes no difference to the fact that she is native American. And so are her children. They will still carry markers which put their ancestors there before you moved in from England. Or do they lose their native rights because of you?
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2010
  10. otheadp Banned Banned

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    There weren't so many of them in Palestine at the time. It was the surrounding Arab states. Today they number something like 6-8 million worldwide? They keep inflating their own numbers to make their problem seem more severe, so I don't really know. But anyway, there are people who haven't set foot in "palestine" in several generations, and whose grandparents who left in 1948 weren't even born there. And yet they are all deemed "natives" and are even bestowed this fake nationality.

    Certainly many / most were not. They migrated to Palestine once the economy there picked up by Zionist newcomers over the decades. Natives they are not. Well, most of them anyway. And remember, there were 500k-600k of these displaced persons (most of which were non-natives, and left at the behest of the invading Arab armies who promised them a quick return if only they fuck off for 10 days so they can finish in 1948 what Hitler started and almost finished by 1945).

    As it's been since almost the beginning, in today's Jordan, and I'm talking about Jordan proper, more than half of the population are "palestinian". Jordan is already "Palestine", as it was intended to be when they partitioned Southern Syria a long time ago. However the government segregates them in refugee camps like in District9, denying them many civil rights such as voting, the right to most jobs, where to reside, property rights, stuff like that. All part of a decades-old policy to radicalize them and not make them "too comfortable", and "encourage" them to build up an army and destroy Israel, so they could "return" "home"...

    Jordan is their state. They can have it if they want it. The royal dynasty that is ruling Jordan right now came from Saudi Arabia... they're Hashemite. (Whatever that means... they're a "different" kind of Arab...). They are not "Jordanian" (another made up nationality... lol)

    Israel made peace with Jordan, but we don't really care if the royal family collapses and the "palestinians", i.e. the majority of residents of the country, take over. The only thing that is keeping the royalty afloat and out of the gallows is western support. Jordan is a friendly middle eastern country, so America is propping them up. But during Black September, had Arafat succeeded and took over Jordan, then Jordan would have been the real and ONLY "palestinian" country, as it should have been.

    The original plan vis-a-vis a Jewish homeland, if I recall correctly, was to assign the territory where Jordan is today to also be part of it. Then 80% was just gifted to the Arabs due to their whining, and the remaining 20% (what's today called Israel + "west bank" + Gaza) was sliced into 2 halves (the 1947 partition plan). But even that... only 10% of the originally designated land for a Jewish homeland was enough to throw the Arabs into a drooling frenzy. They went to war to destroy those 10%. Israel is now supposed to just give away almost half of their territory ... and to whom? To a bloodthirsty gang in Gaza who only view this in the context of 100+ years of Greater Israel defeated and reduced to 20%, then that reduced to 10%, so in 30 more years even those 10% will be gone.

    Oy... 99 problems but a bitch ain't one.
     
  11. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Thats how you recognise a hasbaranik

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    nirakar has devoted more than enough time to this piece of propoganda so I will just link to the thread

    http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=90611
     
  12. otheadp Banned Banned

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    Wipe your chin SAM, the foam is dripping ... lol
     
  13. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Selectively so.

    There are almost too many points in here to address. Which archaeologist admitted to the porcine bones? What specifically are you accusing people of, and which people, and why? Do you have any impression where they came from? Did the Romans bring them? Did they remove the bodies? Does this really seem unlikely to you? Which part am I meant to be "arguing against", when you haven't made any kind of cogent thesis out of any of this except maybe "Joos is deceitful"? I'm only even guessing on that last part out of your other postings and general position, because you haven't made any kind of thesis about it.

    Spastastic. You don't present it and I don't have it. :shrug: What do you want? Surely you could Google this up.

    "Defends" seems a bit strong for what is almost a non-issue: the identity of bones at Massada.

    How do you know it was misconduct? Your cite doesn't imply that and you give no other. How can you know? You're constructing an passionate Israeli-hating narrative yourself without demonstrating any aspects that actually correspond to your viewpoint. You don't even know if it was a simple error.

    It attenuates your genetic origin argument. You state that the Palestinians have been there since time immemorial. But apparently they aren't really the unchanged inhabitants. Yet, this is the benchmark by which you judge the Israeli claim of the same kind (genetic origin): that the Ashkenazim have intermarried and interbred too long with peoples not of Judea, or Samaria, etc - that they are, in short, not "genetic" Jews. Yet apparently the exact same is true of Palestinians, and possibly to a greater degree since the studies of Jewish genetics you usually cite only concern a single Jewish tribe of insignificant demography compared to those from which most Jews are descended. So how can you possibly make your myopic and one-sided argument about genetics? It is a mark of complete logical hypocrisy.

    Nope. But at the same time I would hope that they would welcome back other Native American descents with ties to North America who returned there after many, many years abroad - and I would hope with all my heart that my ancestors would not, in the interim, have viciously suppressed and oppressed the relatives of those returnees, shoving them back into tiny ghettoes and humiliating them in the streets on the basis that my religion should take charge of them. I would also not look unfavourably on the creation of a nation in appropriate size, compared to the massive land that my people occupy, and I certainly would not hate them for the difference of their religion. I would respect their ancient claim to our joint heritage.

    Unless, say, I was some kind of a religious bigot with long-entrenched notions of pan-societal supremacy. Then my opinions would probably resemble yours.
     
  14. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I have given sufficient information on who the archaeologist was, how he misrepresented history and what his scientific misconduct means. For the purposes of establishing a historical narrative, the fact that he misrepresented animal bones as Jewish martyrs is sufficient to demolish the story. Perhaps the Romans only removed Jewish bones and left pigs and Romans lying around. Perhaps not. The absence of the bones of hundreds of Jews who killed themselves in the fictional narrative, means the narrative remains fictional.

    I really don't care where the Ashkenazim came from. I simply challenge any "right" they have to come from around the world and dispossess Palestinians who regardless of any invasions in the past 5000 years [over which they had no control], were resident there. I challenge the right of any mythology to dispossess a human being from his home.

    What your children do with other people is irrelevant, but I am certain you do not believe that some immigrant can use mythology to murder them for your home. I am also certain that if someone did try to murder them for mythology, you would not blame your children for not being completely unchanged natives
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2010
  15. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    You have not. You have given a third-person support: a second-person account of uncertain impartiality and intent.

    Seemingly, you do. You don't mind Saudi Arabian incursions - and settlement - in Palestine, because - why? Because they share a religion or culture with you, and with the dominant culture there now? Or because they represent the antediluvian, Paleolithic culture of the Palestinians?

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    Could your position be more hypocritical?

    As do I. But I also cannot discount the connection of the Jewish people to Israel. I further do not accept - as no right-thinking person could - that Jews in Palestine should have been treated as subhumans, subjected to occasional pogroms and rapine because a farcical mythology of a flying camel ride says so. It is utterly reprehensible, small-minded socio- or geno-cide. It is similarly foolish and small-minded supremacism/bigotry to assume that Jewish migrants to Palestine should take no steps to protect themselves from a similar fate. I am deeply regretful that it has come to this pass, but it is high time for both Israelis and Arabs to acknowledge that rapprochement requires security for both sides; and it is time that other Arab nations or memes stopped using Palestinians as pawns in their supremacist wars.

    It absolutely, utterly is not irrelevant, and only the myopic or monstrous could think otherwise.

    Indeed not. But if it is not mythology - except to the ignorant - then I should give their interests in nationhood some careful thought, particularly if our two cultures once shared this land. I might furthermore give some thought to whether my own mythology has been instrumental in the suppression and dispossession of these people in this land, using self-reflection to guide my consideration.

    Indeed. Neither would you, I presume, unless those natives were Jews. In that case, you would expect them to be as ignorant of your culture's oppression of them as you yourself are.
     
  16. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    The history is fictional. They are murdering real people for fake history. There was no exodus, no exile. It never happened.
     
  17. otheadp Banned Banned

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    :roflmao:
    :bravo:

    The more hatred such as this that you spew, the less credible you and what you say becomes. Not that you have much or any credibility anyway... but I'm just sayin'.
     
  18. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    ???Hatred? Its a fact. Watch PBS documentaries on Bible history, read books on biblical archaeology. Look at the spurious connections made to Judaean pagans. Read the summary of Shlomo Sands excellent historical collation of evidence.

    There was no exodus, no exile. These are probably bits and pieces of other peoples histories stitched together to create a false narrative. They never happened to any "Jews"
     
  19. otheadp Banned Banned

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    What is this, "tit for tat"? No such thing as "palestinians" so "palestinian" sympathizers say there's no such thing as Jews?

    Keep talking. Well, look... there is a huge segment, I'd even say most "palestinians" who think just as you do. Most haven't even heard of the Holocaust, and those who did think of it in the context of the countless other lies told about Jews, so they deny it feverishly. Abu Mazen's PhD thesis was in fact largely about the Holocaust "not happening"...

    There is no way in hell there can be a settlement in the Middle East until both recognize that the other is not going away. That's why Abu Mazen isn't denying the Holocaust any more (at least in public... I know he still believes it), and that is why the Israeli leadership and right-of-center parties in Israel haven't said what I always say -- that it's "palestinians", not Palestinians. I.e. consecutive governments in Israel, rightwing and leftwing have recognized the "palestinians" as a people and a nation, even though it's an indisputable hard fact that they simply aren't.

    It's about recognition of the reality on the ground. Most "palestinians", and many of their cheerleaders such as yourself, refuse to face reality.

    You say the most hurtful things so brazenly, so easily, so nonchalantly, so disrespectfully ... I understand that they come from the context in your head where you are saying it to "war criminals" and whatever... but even if so... if you want to be taken seriously you can't say these things in that manner.

    You can get your message across without denying my history, without denigrating it, without belittling "palestinian" and Arab crimes like they don't exist, or they aren't that bad, or that Israelis and Jews deserve to be slaughtered...

    I think this will fall on deaf ears again... I think I've tried to talk reason to you before and here we are again.
     
  20. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    No Judea, no Samaria, no Jewish people: but of course! Nor was there ever a First or Second or Third Jewish Revolt against the Romans! They were never, ever there. The Romans were just...shadow boxing, perhaps. Maneuvers.

    Of all my points on this thread, that was the only one you chose to address.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judea
     
  21. kororoti Registered Senior Member

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    252
    If my nation had lost in a huge war with a nation allied with the Kurds, and sovereignty over my territory had been assigned to the winning side, then I don't know that I'd be in a position to complain. Sure I'd fight it if I could, but at the same time, it would be the other nations right to open my borders to whomever it pleased.


    Good point. West Bank was just a colony to Jordan, right? It wasn't actually part of Jordan's borders?

    I'm an American, so I'm trying to put this in context: would West Bank have been to Jordan like what Puerto Rico is to the USA?

    Leaving and coming back, especially when you've only been absent for a few days, hardly counts as relinquishing one's citizenship rights. If an attacker is gracious enough to evacuate a portion of the civilian population before attacking, I think it would usually be seen as a good thing for the civilian population to take them up on that offer.


    So, do you think Arafat would have opened Jordan's borders to absorb Israel's Palestinian population, or would heat have just continued business as usual, bombing Israeli buses and whatnot?
     
  22. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Well I come from a place which the Portuguese considered their property and handed over to the British as a dowry and we fought for 200 years to get rid of them. So I cannot fathom anyone not fighting an occupation anymore than I can cannot fathom somebody fighting a home invasion by armed burglars. As far as I am concerned, this is what people do. They fight people who break into their homes and they fight people who invade their countries. Sometimes they may choose the lesser of evils but no one, but no one will not fight being kicked out of their home by a foreigner
     
  23. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    S.A.M., just look at what your have just said.....fought 200 years to regain you own land?

    The Jews have been at this same objective for 1600 years, from the date of the Greek Conquest, 332BC.

    S.A.M. you couldn't have explained it any better if you intended to.
     

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