The Palestinians Start To Wake Up

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Buffalo Roam, Feb 24, 2010.

  1. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    16,194
    We don't have to move a single person out to dismantle it. Your thinking militarily I'm thinking politically.

    You mean like the laws that make Israel Illegal. We could easlily dismantle Israel if we wished militarlly but that would just waste lives. a political dismantling is possible but requires us to hold Israel accountable. We can see Israel replaced with a state for all its citizens. My main line is to reach the point where every one agrees Israel's creation was wrong so rather than keep pushing the palestinians give up more human rights Israel is getting pushed to make concession to them.


    If we don't replace Israel now when it falls(which is probably not that far away. Its rotting away from the inside) are going to run red with blood one group of the palestinains and Israelis will be genocided and the other left weakened to the point they'd be easy pickings for any despot. I'd rather that not happen.
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    16,931
    What place?, please show us were that place is, you have provided no citation, or reference, or context, so again all we have is your bigoted prejudicial opine about how Israel isn't legal, and shouldn't exist, and needs to be destroyed.......and still no actual documentable support that Your opine is even rational.
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. kororoti Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    252
    There are no laws that make its existence illegal. Britain freely parted with territory that it owned outright, having annexed it by conquest. (Back when you could annex land that way.)

    So, you mean the government. The state would certainly remain. Or, do you refer to the possibility of granting independence to the areas where Palestinians mostly live?

    There's nothing productive about doing that. The past needs to be let go of so we can move on. What matters now is that the current generation of Palis who have been born within the borders of the state of Israel are not being granted equal rights with the other citizens.

    Either a land partition needs to occur, so they can have a government that is willing to represent them fairly, or the main government needs to revise its policies and grant them equality. (The first option is probably more practical.)
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    16,194
    that just it didn't own it. The mandates were designed with the intent to bring about modern countries in those areas.



    No I mean the state. would the same area be ruled yes but all the vestiges of the hate and greed of Israel generated would be dealt with.



    your not going to get Israel to treat the palestinians with anything resembling respect unless you cut out their justification. If they have to worry about support they going to have to deal honestly with the pals.
     
  8. Zephyr Humans are ONE Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,371
    So that's your master plan. How's it working for you? How many people have you won over with your argument? Compared to how many now dismiss you as crazy (well crazier than before)?

    Telling the Palestinians they have no right to a state, ever, will not make them cooperate or "make concessions". What makes you think that telling the Israelis they have no right to a state, ever, will make them cooperate or "make concessions"?

    Cooperation requires recognizing the rights of both sides.
     
  9. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    16,194
    I am not here to convince people
    Probably all the people who think taking shit from another people to give to jews is ok but since I don't really care what they think its mute point.

    so why have they
    Its not about what you telling them its about the politcal pressure on them to treat the palestinians with respect. once the idea that Israel creation was a good happy thing it under cuts most of the argument Israel uses to support its abuses.

    I agree but I don't believe making up rights so the rights are more the same is the way to go.
     
  10. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,824
    There is no balanced view of oppression. Occupiers do not really have any right to occupy. When we talk about the rights of victims of the holocaust, do we need to "balance" it with the rights of those who wanted a nazi state?

    In life, sometimes, its not about balance. It about being honest
     
  11. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    16,931

    pj, lust look at what you just admitted......



    Israel is a Modern State, and again created by the exact same process and intent as the rest of the states created out of the mandates.......with the Jews having the exact same right to self determination separate from their Arab neighbors.........

    Now as usual you will ignore your own logical admission, and go wha...wha... wha.... it ain't so, the nasty Jews stole the land, and have no rights to their own self determination separate from the Arabs of Palestine.

    As you have insisted that the Arabs of Palestine have the right to self determination, so to do the Jews of Palestine, as they are a distinct and separate culture from the Arabs, and every thing you claim about the U.N. and self determination of the Arabs, applies equally to the Jews.
     
  12. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,087
    So what about Palestinian oppression of Jews and occupation of what was once Jewish land? It would be as easy to look at the creation of Israel as a liberation of native Jews, and impossible to deny that this, too, was the case. Are you honest enough to also see it from this perspective? Sometimes it is indeed about being honest, although one could also admit to a certain balance and redress of the earlier (pre-1900s) situation.
     
  13. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    16,931

    No, life is about realities, and in all Honesty the reality is that the Jews have the exact same right to self determination as any other ethnicity, separate from the interference of the Arabs, Islam.

    They Have the Right to Walk down the Street and not have to step into the Gutter to let a Muslim Pass.

    They Have the Right to Practice their Religion in Public

    They Have the Right not to be forced into Ghettoes because they are not acceptable to the Muslims of Islam

    They Have the Right to Defense against attack, no matter what the Muslims and Islam thinks.
     
  14. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,824
    What Jewish land? They buried pig bones in a state funeral in Masada because they never found the Masada martyrs

    http://www.meforum.org/1595/sacrificing-truth

    There is no historical support for any of the Jewish myths

    The Invention of the Jewish People



    Mythology is not history.

    The Palestinians dispossessed, struck with white phosphorus, prisoners in their own land, standing for 4 hours everyday to get through hundreds of checkpoints and starved by an oppressive European colonial state that steals their legacy and starves their children, are not myths
     
  15. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,087
    And? You don't know what happened to the corpses at Masada, and the frankly greater likelihood is that the Romans simply hauled them away - or would you expect them to leave bodies just lying about a perfectly usable fortress? Please stop citing this absurd bit of trivia: it's meaningless, really, and illustrates nothing so much as sheer bigotry.

    And flying camels are not mythology? This is the sole Islamic claim to the region. But oppression of the Jewish minority inhabitants is not mythology - unless performed by Muslims, seemingly.
     
  16. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,087
    Another post-edited nonsense. There are no Jews? I think even the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem would have had a hard time buying into that one.
     
  17. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,824
    There is a Jewish religion, but like the Ramayana, it is based on myths not real incidents, I have directed you before to the PBS documentaries on Bible archeology. . There is no Jewish "people" or Jewish "land". Thats all invented history with no basis in reality.

    So why pretend? Why bury pigs in a state funeral and pretend they are the bones of Jews from long ago?
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2010
  18. Pandaemoni Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,634
    First, Israel isn't accepting them in as citizens either.

    Second, America is a country that would have had a hard time, politically accepted that many refugees in the first place. These are the sorts of people conservatives want walls built to keep out.

    Third, the Palestinian Arabs did not actually need "encouragement" to hate Israel. It's not like they were lovey-dovey until other Arab states "tricked" them into opposing Israel. In fact, the other states did Israel a favor.

    Fourth, about that favor they did for Israel...Israel is officially a Jewish state. Had all the Palestinian Arabs remained on the land it would be a Jewish state with, likely as not, either a majority Muslim population or a population that would be majority Muslin in the next few decades (and Jews would be, in any event only a plurality, not a majority is the 4,000,000 Palestianians scattered in the diaspora were all in Israel today).

    That is part of the reason the Israelis can't agree to let them return.

    The situation there is far more complicated than "blame the Arabs" ( or "blame the Jews" or "blame the British" etc.). Fingers can be pointed in every direction there, and the finger pointing game will never lead to a resolution of the conflict.
     
  19. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,087
    Actually, let's explore Sam's post a bit further: I claim What about the oppression of the Jews prior to the 1900s - the pre-Israel period, that is?

    Sam's response - more common these days, my impression remains - is What Jewish history in the region? Mythology is not history.

    I don't need, I think, to point out the ignorant way in which such a claim is translated: the factual or nonfactual history of the Jews in Palestine is irrelevant to the persecution of Jews from 600 - 1900 AD. But as an answer it is instructive. Sam's response really means: What Jews? They had no right to be there. Only the Palestinians had any such right. The entire line of argument is unusual, in that we've already demonstrated little genetic differentiation between Jews and Palestinians, the influence of successive waves of Y-chromosomal (as in: conquering males) influx into the zone, which is to say massive influence from the Arabian Peninsula, which is not Palestine at all. Sam's response to this one was, in essence: "So? Palestinians are closer to Saudi Arabians than Jews," which is an amusing skip of geography in favour of pan-Arabist mythology in its own right, besides missing the obvious point of the confounding of original genes with immigrated genes from Arabia.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    I'm interested in the "genetic rights" theory that she espouses regarding this region, but I think that argument may as well rest there.

    The issue, rather, is that Sam appears to think that Jews of the middle period (0 - 1900 AD) had no rights to be in Palestine at all, based on claims that the Jews were never there. Again leaving aside the humanitarian aspect, this is clearly false; Jews could hardly not be in Palestine, if the Romans were to fight several Roman-Jewish wars against them (starting here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Jewish-Roman_War). So Sam's points are meaningless, except as trolling, perhaps, or to stir the anger of people with actual perspective on the issue. The latter may or may not have been achieved; but is it that she really does believe the above, or that it is, indeed, sheer trolling.

    Sam's usual new line of argumentation is that Jews cause trouble for themselves wherever they go. Presumably this would mean, in the light of her above comments, that Jews caused trouble for the Romans in a place they had never been.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    Impressive, indeed. Is there any other interpretation that I could take from her comments? Her synthesis indeed appears to be: It doesn't matter what religious minorities, and especially Jews, suffer in the Middle East because they were never there (the Jews) or had no right to be in a place they weren't wanted (Jews, Christians, and everybody else). Am I wrong here? It doesn't seem that way. Is there any reason at all to think that much of her commentary is anything other than sheer propaganda, rather than an arguing of one or another point about the ME that needs to be taken into perspective? She argues the same line that any conservative would argue, without reflection on the other's viewpoints, and then accuses those who disagree with her of racism, usually: me, not unusually. And yet I listen well to her arguments: I sift them for relevance and detail. Does she do the same with anyone else? Has she - at any point - acknowledged the complexity of the issue? No. Her threads - all of them, essentially - appear to be about i) the inequities of Israel, ii) the inequities and/or immorality of Judaism and iii) the inequities and/or immorality of Jews, themselves. And of course the United States. There are certainly some viewpoints within each of these bodies that are not completely humanitarian, but is that to say they do no good? Have done none? Not, seemingly, in Sam's eye; and the disease spreads to pj. Straw, on the other hand, shows a keen sense of discrimination (in the good, not the bad sense) of issue and character, while still maintaining his argumentative perspective.

    Sam's work in this thread - and most threads - consists of trolling. I hate to say it, but there it is.
     
  20. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    16,931

    S.A.M. the Romans use pigs as convenient walking meat for their armies, it was a major part of their diet in camp.

    The size of a Legion was approximately 5000 Legionnaire, not including auxiliaries, and support people and slaves.

    There could have been upwards of 10,000 individuals in the Roman Camp during the siege.

    It took 1 year to reduce Massada, and that is a lot of trash and refuse.

    Plus I think the Romans would have though it a great overt message to the rest of the Jews of Palestine, to have left pig bones in the graves of the Jews, and destroy the bodies of the dead at Massada, the ultimate insult.

    The Romans were great at the degradation of those they defeated, and sending messages about the price of resistance to the Roman Law.
     
  21. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,087
    No Jewish people? Which documentaries detailed this? What do you define as a "people"? What do you make of the genetic relationship between Ashenazism Jews and Occidental ones? How do you explain this from your own link:

    Could the Romans not have removed the Jewish bodies? Were their arms very tired? What was the nature of the knowledge of the bones? Was their burial ceremonial? Or do you think it was somehow indicative of immorality or deceit?

    Did they indeed "pretend"? Define "pretend". Did they know? Who did know this? So far you've illustrated nothing more than an interest in fantasy. And if the historical claim of the Jews is fantasy - as the wars of the Jews and Romans of that period simply do not attest - then what religious sense am I to make of the seemingly specious claim that a flying camel passed over Jerusalem in the 7th century, and that your religion, specifically, therefore has a claim to all Palestine at the expense of a people who seemingly "clearly never lived there", weren't living there in 1919 and aren't living there even today? How shall I interpret your baseless assertion of the originality of Palestinians only, and of their extant rather than immigrant similarity to Arabs of the Arabian Peninsula, so very far away?

    Sam. You're trolling.
     
  22. otheadp Banned Banned

    Messages:
    5,853
    Israel should have provided help to Transjordan during Black September.
     
  23. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    72,824
    Geoff:

    Perhaps archaeologists in Israel cannot tell the difference between pig bones and Masada martyrs. Perhaps you're right and they did not know that they were perpetuating a museum for a fictional narrative with no historical support. I generally tend to assume that scientists know what they are doing.

    Meanwhile, when Palestinians claim their rights based on flying camels we shall discuss it.
     

Share This Page