The Over Population Problem

Discussion in 'Science & Society' started by Liebling, Feb 10, 2009.

  1. charles brough Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    476
    interesting statistics, but I doubt that anyone here has claimed that there is not enough room for on Earth or enough cropland. But how do you come up with us having, I think you said, three times the resources we need?

    Take the example of coal. We've mined out all the best grade. To keep up with demand, we even began mining tar sands. It uses twenty to a hundred times more energy to extract it. The same with copper, even uranium. They go down as far as 14,000 feet now to get natural gas. Yet world oil production has not increased since 2004.

    How can we get government to do anything about it when we cannot keep population-caused damand from increasing? Are governments supposed to cut down population growth when their religions encourage them to increase their number? All government is just we the people organized. "We"-the-people don't even know there is a problem.

    What is beginning to happen is that living standards have now declining. The high price of oil is as much to blame for the economic crash as the real estate bubble. It won't let us return to the boom we left and we will have inflation anyway.

    Yet, all that does not hit the real issue. We FEEL over-crowded. We often express it in anger and resentment when we drive in heavy traffic. We lack the trust and easiness with others we used to feel some 50 years ago. Stress is building up our health problems. This is how it is with other animals.
    There is an inner awareness when numbers become too excessive. Hunting-gathering groups always broke up when the group got too large. They felt when it was. No one needed to count and even put it into words.

    charles
    http://atheistic-science.com
     
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  3. DwayneD.L.Rabon Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    999
    Hello, Charles Brough

    I kind of see what you are saying, Where Current findings of resources seem limited, And where current organization of society world wide seems poor or less than what it should be.

    In respects to Oil and Hydrocarbon resources, The figures show that there is a lot of hydrocarbons that exist on earth, meaning have been formed. The total hydrocarbons in the upper crust of the earth would cover the Africa approximatly one mile deep in hydrocarbon. This however includes Living material such as Trees, Shrimp, Humans ect... but also includes coal, and oil.
    Much of the Earth actually serves as possible locations for oil discovery, small deposits, or pockets, larger deposits may be fewer in number... have a accurate count of the earths current biomass would tell us how much more Oil and Coal we could exspect to find in the earths upper crust, That area where humans can easily get to and tap.
    The earth has a vast supply of carbon deposits below its surface, however we need to be able to reach that resource (Approximatly 20% of the earths mass is Carbon).
    At the side of these facts, many Nations have Oil and HydroCarbon reserves, which go unused. the United States has Oil Reserves that are not used, The wells are drilled and Capped for some latter use, how much oil is in those wells is unknown, and Oil companies I hear keep them capped to controll oil prices. Even so those wells may not prove promising in the future, likewise those wells of Russia,or Venzeula that exist in reseves.

    WHat I hear you Say is that even with these reserves the demand and growing demand appear to put such resources at a depletion or a great exspense in the future. Most of that demand would have to be for plastic products as gasoline accounts for only 12% of a barrel of oil (25% some times).
    Changing the social means of fabrics and other common consumer items from plastic back to former materials may work rather well, for example Glass which is quite abundant and much more obtainable and less exspense, cotton may work as well.

    As far as other resources such as Copper, Uranium the earth has alot of it is just a matter of Finding the proper locations to drill; For example the earth has 23,999,391 Cubic miles of Copper within its interior, and 34,498 Cubic miles of Uranium within its interior (Subject to rate of decay). This is as I Understand it a major area of work at least within the area of the Oceans, I my self have a work to be done in this area of technology and it is promising. but remains to be exacted.

    The Living Standard Definitly need to be improved world wide, There is no doubt about it, The technology of Humankind needs to be put to work for humans or esle it is really just a waste, humans as a intelligent species looks exstremmly bad when large leaps of technology are gained and not put to use for the general population. (Even in a capialist Society).
    The occurance of inflation is just plain greed in human society, Inflation might serve when changing the gears of society, but long bouts of inflation are just robbery of the population and thats whats been happening. Generally with the advancement of the use of machines in industry we would exspect to see the prices come down and industry change gears to products that are more inportant and supporting of society, but that has not been the case in the last 10 to 15 years.

    Well Stress does effect human health and mental health, bad city designs and poor building plans of human habitat dwelling would cause many of the effects that we see with animal groups in exspermits. face recognition confusion ect... many cities where designed or grew in design just after world war 2, some where designed with manufactureing in mind,as during the war many manufacturing complexes had to be built. and so they are not built for Civilian comfort, this stage exist around the world, in addition older planners in older regions of the world had different demands and smaller populations ect... so it complies to cause a problem.

    Even So Living with Humans in Society is human, So it amounts to a biometrics problem such as building heigths Kept to less than 45 degrees elevations ect... new room sizes of 900sq, ft., lighting space regulations ect....

    How to actually gfo about making reorder for the cities would take some tought.

    DwayneD.L.Rabon
     
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  5. charles brough Registered Senior Member

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    476
    Yes, as you write, we have an abundance of resources left. The problem is that we have already extracted all that is cheaply recovered and are going after that that is more and more difficult to reach and which take ever more energy to both recover and process. Oil is one of them. Combine this with a grown world population problem and the outlook begins to look grim.

    all we need is for all people world-wide to unite under a single banner so they can work together to deal with this. Otherwise, a new plague or a nuclear war will be a less appealing solution . . .

    charles
    http://atheistic-science.com
     
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  7. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

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    23,053
    A few humans at a party can't even unite in what they want on the pizza orders .....and you expect that they can unite for something as far-reaching as world peace and stability????? You're just dreaming, right??

    Baron Max
     
  8. Liebling Doesn't Need to be Spoonfed. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,532
    But to do that we have to get rid of dogma, prejudice, racism and nationalism.

    Woo, that's a tough nut to sell. While I agree that it is the best and most productive way to fix the issue, it's just not realistic in this current world in which we live. We have too many egos in high places who make a game out of jousting with each other in an attempt to further separate humanity from each other. Unfortunately, most people do not get a chance to travel around the world and break down the barriers to realize that we are all on the same planet. How do we get there? I think the dissemination of information provided by the Internet and media is helping a bit with that, but it's not enough. Idealistically we could understand and have compassion for our fellow man if we understood their plight and lot in life. We get that too rarely and it will hurt us in the long run.

    It's important for people to understand where the world is headed and how it can be avoided, but we need to find a way to do this in a way that doesn't offend egos or threaten those in power.
     
  9. charles brough Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    476
    You describe we modern humans quite well! We in the West are dedicated to attacking Islam and they are dedicated to attacking us. We cannot work with the East Asian Marxists and they defend North Korea. We are all unable to cooperate.

    But, within those spheres, people do cooperate. We cooperate to war on Islam, for example. What we need is a new belief system that will be able to replace all of those religion-based spheres or societies and thus bring about a united world. No such belief system could work unless it spells out specific goals we need to achieve. Then, we would work to achieve them.

    Even now, we work fanatically to achieve our goals. The Consitution set the goal as "the pursuit of happiness." So, we squander our resources accumulating "stuff" because corporate advertising has dunned us into thinking that is what brings happiness. . .

    charles
    http://atheistic-science.com
     
  10. charles brough Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    476
    My assessment of the situation you describe is that as our civilization declines as did the Roman Empire and its Greek-Roman civilization, stress will climb to such levels that people will be desperate---as they were then---to find a new belief system that would save them. This time, it will have to be one that does more than makes illusive utopian promises. One that proposes world population control to get control over the overpopulation problem and gets rid of waste---such as the wars we have in Islam---among other goals.

    charles
    http://atheistic-science.com
     
  11. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,053
    So you're saying that you'll continue to dream of Utopia even as you realize that it's virtually impossible to achieve, is that right?

    Wouldn't you be better off to try to do something reasonable in a small, but significant way?

    And, by the way, "we" aren't in a war against Islam ....where did you get such a notion?

    Baron Max
     
  12. charles brough Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    476
    Not at war with Islam? We invade two or her nations, threaten "all options open" on another, shoot missiles into still another and support the one country that has taken land away from them in Palestine. We are at war with Islam. They either have to accept and follow our secular way of life or we will keep kill them until they quite fighting us back and give up.

    Your little solutions are going on all the time and conditions detriorate. You are giving into a leap of faith. How would you "educate the American people" to do what you think needs to be done?

    charles
    http://atheistic-science.com
     
  13. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,053
    No, we're not. We're not even attacking/invading the countries that have the most Muslims, so how could we be at war with Islam?

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    Baron Max
     
  14. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    16,931
    But why did we invade them? It wasn't because they were Islamic, that is abundantly clear.
     
  15. DwayneD.L.Rabon Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    999
    Well, once again there is no real population problem, It is a Delusion to believe that a population problem exist, or it should be said that it is more of a regligion to believe so. In the future such views might be Vaild in that the world population has grown.
    The reality is that some serious problems exist When reproduction is not at a given rate, As the Stature of the human race falls. A fall in the stature or preformance level of humans results in more problematic function of societies.
    A decrease in mental preformance results in braod scale misunderstanding within the general population in daily life, causing increased violence and disorder.
    The Birth rate per female needs to be 4 births, in order to compete with the inbreeding rate. 1 in 4 people are normal functioning, meaning they will live thier entire life with out blemish, or biological Malfunction. The figures show worse results in the infant mortality rate,(1 in 9 or 15), fact is most of disfunctional infants die within two years, out of those that survie 1 in 4 is considered normal. ( this is not to say that a female can not give birth to 4 compeltely normal children because that can happen).
    When you slow the reproduction rate of humans by population controll meathods, it could very quickly deplete your society within a short period.
    America only has 7,500,000 normal people that will live lfe with out disfunction, 65,000,000 million that are normal that will develope disfunction.
    The world 187,861,271 normal that will not develope disfunction. and 1,652,500,000 that are normal that will develope disfunction.

    There are other problems that effect social function, such as food. the average person needs to consume 0.03 pounds of food for each pound of lean body weight (0.03 x Body weight) minium, the maxium a day (x2) is twice that. To maintain proper health food consumption is inportant as when food is not consumed the body preformes poorly and so does the mind.
    Many of the unhappy people, criminals and so on are actually driven by hunger, even in modern societies. The body has subtle aches that are recognized by the conscious mind and what results is a under lying pain, causing sparatic violence and uncontrolled behavior. In other words criminals and other gruppy people often have poor diet,or eatting patterns which is actually the underlying reason for their adverse behavior in society.

    I would also mention that any time the birth rate falls below the death rate there is a problem.


    DwayneD.L.Rabon
     
  16. charles brough Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    476
    the term "Islam" represents to me an individual religion, culture and entity. It is divided within itself, but when its people feel other religion-culture entities wage war on any part of it, they resent it. In the same way, the people in california would resent an invasion of Florida by a Cuban army. Humans are group-sensitive that way and you should be familiar with it.

    It is a primate response and explains much of human history. By primate, I mean in the way that, say, the howler monkey operates. Every morning the whole group goes to the edge of their territory and howl at the members of the next door group who, in turn, howl back. They are in effect insulting each other.

    charles
    http://atheistic-science.com
     
  17. charles brough Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    476
    seems to me the many statistics you provide are not relevant to what is the real issue. That is, the issue of energy. Every mineral and other resource we use to support our numbers takes large quanities of energy to extract. In every case, the best sources have already been exhuasted and we are working to extract what we need, what our growing numbers need, by digging for, hauling and refining ever less abundant sources and using ever more and more energy to extract it. Not only that, but the same applies to our energy as well! Oil has to be found in ever more remote and difficult to work places which means it takes more energy to get it out. Same with coal. We are now down to coal tars as a last resort. Natural gas is being drilled 14,000 feet down.

    All this points to a fast approaching crisis of major proportions. You might be interested in looking at http://www.chrismartenson.com/crashcourse/chapter-18-environmental-data

    charles
    http://atheistic-science.com
     
  18. Baron Max Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,053
    Yeah, and see, that's what bothers me most about Muslims. A Muslim terrorist blows up a bunch of innocent Muslim Afghanis and the Muslims say little or nothing about it. But if a US missile strike on one of those same Muslim extremists accidentally kills an "innocent" Afghani, the Muslims all across the globe yell and scream about it.

    So, ...why don't the Muslims feel the same way when a Muslim extremist kills a bunch of Muslims? ...that those same extremists are waging war on all Muslims????? But they don't! And worse, they often cheer and celebrate such horrendous deeds done in the name of Islam.

    Yeah, sure. But I doubt very seriously if a bunch of Californians would go into public marketplaces in Calif and blow up a bunch of Californians as a protest agaiinst the Cuban invasion of Florida!! And yet, that's what Muslims will often do! ...they blow up their own people in response to some perceived US act against Islam. And you say that that's normal ...and that I should be familiar with it????

    Baron Max
     
  19. charles brough Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    476
    It should be clear that I am not justifying suicide bombing of people. My posts explain why they do things. It is also clear to me that there is a reason for everything, a reason why people do things. Muslims are humans like us. I lived among them for three years and they are not fanatics. We in the Christian West are not fanatics, but we do have "Creationists" and people like Pres. Bush who would beat down Islam in order to boost Christianity. To him, killing Muslims was a pleasure because they were "heretics." Hence, to him, they were "evil." So, since we are so powerful, the Muslims retaliate in what ever way they can. The more we interefer in Islam, the more terrorists we make.

    charles
    http://atheistic-science.com
     
  20. vhawk Registered Member

    Messages:
    101
    is it not true that vast tracts of the world are unpopulated? i don't know, one chap once told me that you could put the entire population of the world on the Isle of Wight- though I was a tad dubious of that
     
  21. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    30,994
    "The Muslims" say plenty about it. They just don't bother to say it to you.
    You hear about the stuff that is your responsibility.

    Sure. Like Antarctica - huge continent, few people, plenty of room for everyone who thinks there is no overpopulation problem.
     
  22. Cellar_Door Whose Worth's unknown Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,310
    Did you read my post? Humans need a lot more than living space and farmland. Plus, what about other wild animals and plants, do they not need living space as well?
     
  23. charles brough Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    476
    "Running out of territory" is a biological term meaning that for whatever reason, a group of animals (or humans) have become "over-populated." Our problem is not space nor is it even food. It is energy. WHY it is energy was touched on in post #134.

    charles
    http://atheistic-science.com
     

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