The Ontological Argument for the existence of God

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Thomas Cranmer, Oct 31, 2017.

  1. birch Valued Senior Member

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    but it's not cynical, it's accurate. it's just that to think about the truth produces negative emotions for most.

    for one, logic, reason, justice, fairness, sanity etc is not the world. even the small percentage of intellectuals etc is not the world. the world does not actually operate on your or those terms, especially for the most part and only around the edges or superficially perhaps.
     
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  3. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Everybody thinks their view of the world is accurate.

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    You're a cynic because you perceive the world through cynical glasses.
     
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  5. birch Valued Senior Member

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  7. birch Valued Senior Member

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    you know what, i considered that point but i'm not going to concede it because i cannot deny what i know and that is i grew up in a political/social/ cultural climate even extending beyond my family where people like what i describe such as the conservative right as well as more mean, nasty, cold, prejudicial, bullyish, even less evolved people it seemed were favored etc and were the majority. it was very clear people like that were the ones fitting in and belonged.
    society was also not anything like this forum and in fact, was the opposite, people did not stand up for what was right or speak out against wrong or were thought some action or speech was rude or nasty, even if it so clearly was etc. in fact, hideously, it was encouraged and accepted as being right, even cheered or jeered or silently supported like devils or satan's kin. literally, the exact opposite of all that is right, sane, ethical or fair. that was general society and the people in it.

    animalistic rules. strangely, it is like a different world and different rules where that invisible dividing line is between the small percentage of some (not all because some intelligent people are not ethical) intellectuals and just about everything and everyone else. and it's damn ugly. if you don't have to live in that world, you are very fortunate except for the ones who fit into it lucky for them .

    it seemed the nicer, ethical, fair etc i was, the worse people were to me and the more they wanted to bully or were crass, and so i stopped or had to hide it under a bushel basket. this forum is lightweight, as the real world with real people in it is much nastier than what goes on on forums or the internet surface. it was also clear the world was sending me a clear message that my kind was not wanted or to be used, one or the other. it's not even subjective, it is an objective analysis to me by virtue that i even noticed other more kinder or sensitive people as rare or more outcast or fringe. so NO! i am not being cynical. my cynisism is as valid as you can get when i've personally been witness to the worst and cruel scum being accepted by the general public much more readily, over and over in fact, than good people which anyone can do the math of that and form the conclusions about society.

    it also makes me question who you are and the kind of person you are or if you somehow were fortunate enough not to have to be so aware of such a rough world by either status, family, career etc. i don't know but it's hard for me to believe, because i'm assuming you are not that young, that you weren't aware of that or picked that up just by being in society or dealing with it.

    i'm going to mention another slight change too and that is the idea that kids these days are worse than previous generations. i've noticed that the kids these days actually have some innocence about them, like kids should. i don't even think it's just cultural there, but possibly a slight improvement in evolution.

    the kids from my generation had absolutely nothing, and i mean nothing/zero at all innocent about them. they cussed like the most seasoned sailers, overtly sexual, the worst bullies and slanderers, plenty of prejudice and bullying etc. and these were not ghetto schools. you have to remember, i grew up mostly in middle-class america so this was a mixture of white (predominantly) and black kids mostly. they were as cold, nasty, aggressive and way too grown up in knowing things that they should not. it was horrible. i moved every single year , sometimes twice a year so had to change schools often (so i have experience to say so) and all of them were nasty or cruel social climates caused by the majority kids themselves except for just a couple schools that weren't. so this theme i've observed of more evil vs good, worse vs better, lower vs higher etc in just about every single facet or area in life, including quality or goodness of people is spot-on. so yes, it's not just an opinion but a straight-up fact that there are more numerous worse people than good ones in the world.

    what i mean by harsh is that what i describe is not harsh to everyone, especially and by those who were the ones responsible for creating that type of culture/atmosphere as well as societal politics. not everyone was suffering or subjugated or ostracized or not felt at home in the world. evidently not because majority rules always. but the prevailing theme was that it was NEVER the bad, mean or worse people, especially the bully type who were targeted or suffering or bullied themselves. that goes for any social climate either school or work or society.

    what i mean by evil is that it exists in people and it just takes the right recipe or social climate for that to come out. people tend to want to fit in and especially by whatever trends, even socially. so now it's considered 'cool' or more common to be liberal or have friends from different races etc. people don't really change as much as their appearance and act. do you think those kids who are grown-ups now would ever admit that they were that way? of course not! or even the people/adults who are nasty or have been to people for various reasons? of course not. even cultural speech patterns change as well as lingo, some of it even subtly. people even speak differently today than they did even a couple decades ago. this is kind of funny but it's become widespread to have a 'valley girl' speech pattern and it's predominant among just about everyone these days. back then, white people didn't speak that way, except for the ones in california and just about all black people, especially females, had a ghetto black accent. now they all sound like californian speech, no matter what, and in all states. lmao.

    i remember this kid who came from california and the kids were introduced to what is now prevailing culture. i would say the liberal california culture has become widespread. it's not that those people are inherently different or changed, people mimic whatever is considered popular and acceptable. when i was growing up, it was unheard of that even sushi was popular. everyone hated raw fish and was common and popular to be nastily derogatory about foreign cuisine. now it's cool to say sushi is their favorite food or whatever. do you think people's taste buds changed all of a sudden? lmao.

    people ARE full of shit and also by what is meant by the saying you never really know anyone.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2017
  8. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    Not to dismiss other arguments against it but it is only stupid mumbo jumbo. It is astounding such supposedly great thinkers actually took it seriously.

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    Last edited: Nov 5, 2017
  9. Baldeee Valued Senior Member

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    What exactly do you think about it is "mumbo jumbo"?
     
  10. Ivor Bigun Registered Member

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    Magical ceremonies and beliefs.
     
  11. Baldeee Valued Senior Member

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    What magical ceremonies are there attached to the Ontological Argument per se?
    Surely it is simply an argument that aims to use pure reason in an effort to prove the existence of God.
    Its validity and soundness is oft questioned, though.
    That is perhaps where the issue of what one believes comes in, in the matter of whether one believes the premises sound or not.
    But I hardly think it derisory to question such things as whether "all things that exist were caused" etc.

    So I am still not sure what the "mumbo jumbo" is supposed to be regarding.
     

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