The Obama File

Discussion in 'Politics' started by eyeswideshut, Oct 5, 2011.

  1. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    26,879
    I notice that you have not, apparently, bothered to read my post immediately above, in which I point out (using examples from the fraudulent and dishonest mailing you naively quoted without due diligence) that taking Congressman Issa's word for anything is evidence of either complete ignorance or very, very poor judgment. I'm going with ignorance, for the time being, but you've been warned three times now - you need to check and verify stuff from this guy, not spam us with it.

    The man is not a source of information, Billy. Posting economic or political info from such a source is equivalent to posting info about Jews from some Neo-Nazi website.

    One more example, apparently from the latest missive from Issa:
    We note first the various confusions of category, the ambiguity of gross vs net income, the overall lack of clarity. Any criticism will have to make assumptions, which can be denied or focused on or played with etc - typical Issa. That's how he does budgets - fog and innuendo.

    The words "Homeland Security" do not even appear. You missed that? How naive are you?

    But: Now obviously all of that is completely - completely - dependent on the exact sources, the combination, of that "combined income". A family of four living on their Uncle Romney's trust fund of invested capital would owe no Social Security or Medicare whatsoever, for example. A family in which their machinist father earned the entire 80k from hourly wages would pay more than 5k in SS alone, merely from the employee's share, now that Issa has succeeded in rolling back Obama's best Keynesian tax break and by so much preventing whatever stimulus benefit he can block.

    But that is not the worst of it. Worse is the pie chart, in which he has told many lies in an image - a form that allows him to hide stuff that anyone would notice if he stated it in declarative sentences.

    Social Security and Medicare, for example, are not "autopilot" expenditures that cannot be addressed by a Congressman - the many attempts to correct Plan D, the major inflation (and it has serious competition) of the Medicare costs, have been blocked by Congressman Issa, who now pretends these costs are like the weather or something; the abuse of the SS disability system to roll off State welfare expenditures is another consequence of Issa and friends "reforming" things; Defense is a far larger budget item, also - pieces of it (the nuke stuff, the medical stuff, the mercenary and contractor stuff) are hidden all over - not to mention the share of the interest payments; and so forth and on and on.

    You'd have to spend pages taking the little lying cartoon apart - exactly the reason for that choice of format.

    To repeat: posting stuff from Issa without vetting and critiquing and - most important - correcting it, is spamming a forum like this one. You might as well post Fox News editorials. Creationists have their own little corner where they can post the latest from their heroes, and maybe we should have something like that for the Tea Party faction, but it isn't part of a reasonable discussion.
     
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  3. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    Correction, “Issa writes emails that to some people appear to be plausible and appear to have good suggestions.” Issa is a politician; that is what politicians do. Let’s look at the comments about 12 years of revenue growth which you attribute to Issa. The numbers, assuming them to be correct and that is a big assumption considering the source, they are completely meaningless because they offer no context. It is like me telling you I am in a vehicle traveling at 55 miles per hour. If I am in a car on a highway with good weather, that is not of much concern. If I am doing 55 miles per hour on the same road with solid ice on the road in the middle of a blizzard, it would be more of a concern. If I am traveling in a Cessna 150 traveling at 55 miles per hour (i.e. stall speed), that would be of concern as my plane would be on the verge of falling out of the sky. Context and relevance is everything.

    The relevant numbers here are federal revenues and expenditures as a percent of GDP. Funny, Issa is not talking about those numbers, probably because they don’t support the ideology he is trying to sell.

    I am not going to get into your predictions and machinations about China and gold.
     
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  5. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    OK but I´m not happy with the rapid increase of the debt to GDP ratio to more than 107% now - are you?
     
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  7. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    No, of course not, but it is what it is, that Rubicon was crossed more than a decade ago when Issa and his merry band of Republicans were rewarding their crony capitalist supporters with open access to public coffers. The time to be upset about it was more than a decade ago when yahoos like Issa created this mess. In the game of golf sometimes you can get a mulligan, but in real life and in business you don’t get mulligans.

    The real question now is what do we do about the debt situation? Do we do the same stupid things that caused this problem? Do we reward Issa and his merry band of Republicans by turning our public coffers over to them again? Do we continue to listen to Issa and his ilk? Do we have any reason to believe that Issa and his merry band of Republicans will do any better if we give them custody of our public coffers again? Unfortunately, no, we don’t. In fact we have good reason to believe that they will run the economy and the nation’s finances into the ground again if given half a chance.

    We have had higher debt to GDP in the past. And the solution is now as it was then to raise taxes on those who can best afford to pay those taxes . . . the very thing Issa and his fellow Republicans have steadfastly refused to do. We do have a problem in this country with healthcare expenses. As healthcare has become more and expensive, growing at more than twice the growth of income, our solution has been simply to ration healthcare and to shift healthcare costs from individuals (e.g. Medicare & Medicaid) to the federal government to protect healthcare oligopoly profits. Healthcare and defense spending accounts for about half of all government spending and with healthcare costs growing at twice the growth of income, the numbers just don’t work. We need to get our healthcare costs in line with those of other industrial nations. If we can bring our healthcare costs into line with those of other developed nations we can cut our healthcare costs and related government expenditures by half – lopping12% off our annual federal expenditures and that is what Obamacare attempts to do which coincidentally is something that Issa and his band of merry Republicans have fought against tooth and nail for decades now - preferring no change or more healthcare rationing.

    Instead of dismantling the boat and tossing the pieces overboard while at sea as Issa and is fellow Republicans would do, we should be using the owner’s manual to fix the boat and sail it into a safe harbor as President Obama and his not so merry band of Democrats have done and continue to do.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2013
  8. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Joe: I agree with much of what you say in post 724 with some minor corrections and suggestions that differ.

    One: The problem began very much longer than "a decade ago" - very long even before Issa was born. First clearly recognized in 1834 in book Democracy in America but became much worse when US (and most of the world) started using fiat currency with no limit to its production. More recently, but long before Issa was a Congressman, Ike, in his farewell presidential address, warned about how special interest groups could and were starting to pervert the budgets for the benefit of their small group of friends - members of what Ike called: the Military Industrial Complex, the MIC.

    For example there is not any enemy in the world which US could not defeat with 2/5 of the current spending on defense - That 2/5 ths was chosen as it would have US still spending twice as much as the second biggest spender, China. Also most of China´s spending is the expense of maintaining its large man-power army - more than twice the size of the US army. That army is man power used to clean up after earthquakes, floods etc. so spending on it is not all military. All the stupid US high tech programs for which there is no need like the F-35 fighter and two different versions of the literorial fighting ship and the navy´s "stealth destroyer" which is to operate mainly in the S. China Sea where any of at least 10,000 Chinese fishing boat, most of which use the Chinese version of GPS for navigation, can see and report its location correctly with less than 3 meter error! etc. etc.

    So yes, IMHO, the Republican unthinking support for ever more spending on the MIC is a major reason why the US will collapse economically. As Ike said, the MIC is the greatest threat to the USA. Or as Pogo said: "We have met the enemy and he is us." Unfortunately, I think this stupidity is built into the system, as was pointed out in 1834. It can only be controlled or counter actively by a very well educated, especially in economics, population that thinks it must leave the world better for its children that the one it received from its parents. The Scandinavia countries have this well educated population with this responsible attitude, but the US does not and is falling ever lower compared to the education others in advance countries receive.

    Main thing* to do to improve US education for the masses is to end local funding of schools. Local funding assures the only really good schools are in wealthy neighborhoods. US creates a well-educated elite that uses the laws (and bribes via lobbyists) to insure the top few percent grow rapidly richer each year. Did you know that of the 130 nations the Gini index is computed for, Sweden is the best and Norway and Denmark are also in the best four, but there are 90 nations with better Gini index than the USA? The US is doomed - an egotistical self centered nation that does not care about what type of US it leaves to its children. The common messages the population sends to Congress, as noted in 1834, but in modern slang, is: "Give me the goodies / benefits I want now and send the bill to the next generation" and the Congress, wanting re-election more than anything else, gives the voters what they are asking for; now producing annually trillion dollars spending in excess of revenues.

    Now a few words on medical care etc. Scandinavians (in fact all Europeans) spend only half as much as Americans do (including fraction of their taxes paying most of the cost) for nearly free out of pocket medical services and they live at least two or in some cases nearly four years longer than Americans do; but like the MIC, the DIC (Doctors, Insurance industry and Congress) likes the current system and brainwashes the population into thinking Socialize medical care would be a disaster. Reason US system is so bad, compared to those in Europe is: (1) Medical insurance companies make profits and add complexity, especially for the doctors with their forms. (2) Doctors charge as much as they can - what the traffic will bear, but doctors in Europe are on salaries like most other workers are. (3) The poor who cannot afford the insurance premiums (or a lot of things) do not see a doctor when they first get sick. They wait until they are nearly dying and then some friend, who has a car, drops them off at the emergency entrance of a hospital and quickly disappears. The problem that a vacination could have prevented or that $100 dollars of early care could have solved, costs society more than $10,000 with week or more in a hospital bed.

    Despite these DIC suppressed facts and because of the DIC´s bribes to Congress, and because their TV propaganda, etc. which guides the poorly educated and poorly informed Joe American to vote against demonstraded better and more economical system, makes Joe thank God that the US does not suffer under socialized medicine.

    On a personal note, tomorrow after lunch I go to a university hospital (USP, perhaps the best in Brazil´s public health services as wife was a professor there)** to have a tumor removed from my left kidney the next AM. I am very lucky - my doctor urologist/ surgeon spent 8 years recently at the Johns Hopkins Hospital mainly doing these type of procedures! The probability that it is a cancer is 80%, - but it was detected very early during a tomography scan - part of my first very complete exam set - all free. I will not pay anything for the operation or for the days in hospital recuperating. - Same as 4.5 years ago I did not pay anything when after biopsy, my cancerous prostate was removed with three days in the hospital.

    Here in Brazil most simple drugs and all preventive injections are free (paid by taxes). This is the intelligent way to keep population healthy at low cost, but the egotistical US will not learn from others how to do things better. In low population density rural areas the medical bus comes each month - takes people´s blood pressure, etc, gives out birth control pills and other needed medicines and gives preventive injections etc.

    Perhaps this post belongs in the old thread I made, called: "How DUMB can American Voters be." The answer is: Dumb enough to destroy America economically.

    * It would also help US education greatly to adopt the Scandinavian practice of having the first grade teacher move up as the 2nd grade teacher etc until the class goes off to high school. One reason is that it is impossible to pass a kid who can´t read on up to the next grade teach as the his "next grade teacher" will be the same. Another very important benefit is who is responsible for any ill educated child is known by all. When an exceptionally good teacher in small town retires, the mayor usually holds a dinner in her honor (paid by the many generations of parent/guests who were lucky enough to have their child taught by that teacher). Also very important is that on first day of second grade she knows who needs help in certain area, say math, and who is good in it, so she has that one help the other while she teaches to others - I.e. getting ALL the class well educated is a team effort and this makes them later as adults interested in helping others, even at expense to them selves. They willing pay high taxes so all get free health care free, quality education, etc. It is little wonder that when they go to high school most are better educated, in math and sciences and speak several languages, etc. than US high school students are when they graduate high school to go off to colleges! Scandinavians love their country, work hard to make it better for the next generation and never, for example, would throw trash out of the car window etc. Their national debt to GDP ratios are about 1/3 as great as the US has and they lead healthy, productive lives. For example, many in winter will get on a local train with their cross country skis and get off at the first stop, then ski back home. I have seen a family doing this and the man was pulling a well wrapped up baby in the sled behind him!

    ** Normally you must go the clinic or hospital nearest to your home. I do go there for simple flu shots etc. as it is only a short walk, not a 30 minute drive in traffic.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 31, 2013
  9. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    "... The Senate budget calls for $3.7 trillion in spending next year, the House budget, $3.5 trillion, but President Obama is calling for the highest amount of spending… $3.77 trillion.

    According to House Budget Committee Chairman Paul Ryan's statement today, he is very disappointed with the President's budget. He says, "they never balance the budget. Instead, it raises taxes by $1.1 trillion. It increases spending by $964 billion. And it adds $8.2 trillion to our debt." ..."
     
  10. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    22,882
    Ok

    That is a little deceptive. These are 10 year numbers. Including them with annual numbers (paragraph number one) without noting the difference is a bit deceptive. Additionally, Ryan’s comments are funny at best. In that last half century no Republican president has had a balanced budget. Yet there have been two Democratic presidents in the last half century who have had balanced budgets, Bill Clinton and LBJ. And when you consider that Ryan voted for every profligate spending measure passed by congress since he was elected to congress, it is really pathetic.

    What Ryan conveniently forgot to mention was how much his budget added to the debt. It would be much greater than either the Senate’s version or the president’s version. If you use realistic assumptions, Ryan’s budget doesn’t balance the budget either, as Ryan’s budget would reduce economic growth and would reduce federal revenues as a result.

    http://www.cnbc.com/id/100610852
     
  11. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    22,882
    And the Ryan plan has bid hole in it. It is riddled with “and then magic happens” conditions. Ryan’s budget has tax cuts which he says will be paid for by broadening the tax base. But he fails to explain how he will broaden the tax base. His economic forecasts are unrealistic too.
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/joshbarro/2012/03/25/the-ryan-tax-plan-isnt-a-plan/



    At least Democrats have the balls to put forward an honest budget that is based on realistic assumptions and doesn’t rely on a bunch of “and then magic happens” statements.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2013
  12. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    To Joepistole:
    I don´t have your time, or desire to know all the details I´m more focused on the forest than the trees. The basic problem was pointed out back in 1835 In book Democracy in America by Alexis de Tocqueville. The voters, even Republicans, with rare exceptions, don´t really want a balance budget, despite their claims. They want goodies NOW for their supporters and to have the bill sent to future generations.* The only real difference is in which group they find their supporters. Generally speaking Republicans want more welfare for the already rich - spending on defense etc. (Ike´s Industrial-Military complex) and Democrats want more spending for the needy - social programs. Both paths lead to collapse hell.

    -------------
    * more details in 126 posts of this thread: http://www.sciforums.com/showthread...ments-stable&p=2573119&viewfull=1#post2573119 but problem is now much worse and we are more rapidly traveling down the road to Hell as it is now powered by fiat money (no limit on spending for goodies now).
     
  13. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    22,882
    Then how do you know you are not looking at camouflage?
     
  14. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    23,198
    Considering who will win the coming Egyptian elections and recent past, I'll claim another accurate long term prediction:
    Why break with a 50+ year tradition? The sixth leader of Egypt will be a general too.
     
  15. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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  16. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    26,879
    Billy, you double down on your gullibility regarding Issa with forum spam from Ryan. Check your sources, please. Propaganda and bs from wingnut Republicans is not a basis for discussion of the US economy.

    And yet you find yourself discontented by a debt rising to 107% of GDP - in the wake of an economic crash . That's missing the forest for a shrub.
     
  17. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    No sure what you refer to but if it is the Obamacare cartoon in post 732 that comes form China Daily - not a known Republican center. Check it by starting to quote.
     

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