The Mueller investigation.

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Quantum Quack, Feb 17, 2018.

  1. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    Very simple, he has read the indictment and came to the same conclusion as Moon of Alabama that "the "Russian Influence" Is A Commercial Marketing Scheme" and has nothing to do with any government action to influence elections.

    BTW, I read in your link the Trump tweet
    I think he is right here, at least I'm laughing my ass off here in Berlin. (Of course, all this is a little bit scary, seeing a whole nation, moreover one with a lot of nukes, going insane in a propaganda campaign directed against the other nation with a similar number of nukes. But such is life. I came already in Obama time to the conclusion that the danger of a big nuclear war during the years until the US elites accept the multipolar world is quite big. And this scary show of anti-Russian hysteria I see now has doubled my estimate.)
     
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  3. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Which makes Trump's appeasing him even less sensible.
    Then they should either take another look at what it says on their passport and achieve enlightenment, or move to Russia.
    They voted in Ukrainian elections, for Ukrainian government. That means they were Ukrainians.
    She's calculating. That made her less dangerous, if you were really worried about nuclear war - which you were not, obviously, if you favored the mishap-in-waiting Trump.
    Trump is much more impulsive as well as more aggressive, and less competent. Much less competent. Furthermore, Trump surrounds himself with worse and less competent (at governing) people, amplifying his defects and increasing the chances of mishap.
    I doubt Putin would start a nuclear war, and I'm confident Clinton the Compromiser would not start one, and they are both competent and accident-avoiding, so no problem.
    So you have talked all the way around the circle, and my original post is now a mutual agreement.

    Mueller's leverage has increased with each news cycle - it may be impossible for Trump to fire him now.
    Your ignorance of American history shows once again. This scene is remarkable for the lack of anti-Russian hysteria on display - to the point that actual Russian corruption and vandalism of US politics and government is being treated as no big deal by the authoritarian right wing.
     
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  5. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    It is interesting to think that if Putin wanted the USA in a state of chaos then all he would have to do is fabricate evidence of collusion and "leak" it...then after USA goes into melt down and Trump is about to get locked up, recant and say

    "Oh.. uhm gosh, I am sorry but the evidence is fake, we now have evidence that the evidence of collussion that we leaked was fake... wink wink"
     
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  7. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Trump is personally scared sh*tless of Putin, and the biggly is also why?
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2018
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  8. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Things are definitely moving along now...

    Special counsel Robert Mueller has filed a new indictment against former Trump campaign aides Paul Manafort and Rick Gates, according to court records.

    The indictment, filed in US District Court in Alexandria, Virginia, includes tax and bank fraud charges against Mr Manafort and Mr Gates, who had pleaded not guilty to federal criminal charges Mr Mueller initially filed against them last October.
    src: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-...-against-ex-trump-campaign-associates/9477250
     
  9. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    The answer is no. It's highly unlikely Trump will take any action against Russia or defend the USA. Putin is helping Trump and that's all that matters to Trump. He had the opportunity to impose sanctions and he failed to do so. Meanwhile, congressional Republicans have lost any moral backbone they may have had. They have once again put party over country. They let Trump walk all all over the Constitution. The future looks dire. Our only hope is that Democrats maybe able to take over Congress this fall.
     
  10. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    It's probably the pee pee tapes.
     
  11. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    no kidding....

    The amount of damage that Trump and his supporters have inflicted in such a short time is utterly amazing...

    even with a democrat congress the future is dire....

    not just for the USA either btw.
     
  12. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    The key to Trump/Putin eventual failure I believe lies in the missing 30000 odd emails scrubbed by Hillary and why she hasn't been pursued by Trump even though he strenuously promised he would do so.

    They may be waiting for Putin/Trump to reveal their intentions before acting. (for political reasons)
     
  13. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    They have to submit to the fascist coup against the president they elected or move to Russia? Really?
    Yes, and the blacks in the US voted for the US government, that means they are whites. Completely off? They are Russians (which is about ethnicity and culture), and citizens of the Ukraine.

    You think so? Let's see. I argued: "I have made clear enough that using names of real US citizens as fakes and opening bank accounts for them is illegal. And I have no problem with criminal convictions because of these methods."
    You answered: "Yes, you do. Because they would involve either trial in absentia by a corrupt American State, prosecution in Russia for violations of American law, or extradition and depositions under oath with penalties for perjury - and that ain't happenin', is it. "

    I have described you the legal situation. If they have done really criminal things, this would be illegal in Russia too, and in this case, it can be persecuted in Russia, following Russian law. I doubt opening fake accounts in foreign banks is legal in Russian law. (It may be covered by an actual amnesty for all those who send money from various illegal foreign accounts home to Russia, in fear of the recent sanctions.) So, persecution of actual crimes would be possible, and I would not have any problem if it would be done.

    Of course, persecution of US ideological crimes, which penalize as "conspiracy against the US" whatever opinion they don't like worldwide, would be horrible, and to prevent such horrors is one of the main points in favor of a multipolar world, with many sovereign states, which don't have to care about US laws but persecute only criminals following their own laws.
     
  14. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    You are still on about the multi polar world nonsense? When you failed to provide sound reasoning for it you still cling to it...why?
     
  15. geordief Valued Senior Member

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    They? Who is "they"? FBI?
     
  16. spidergoat Turd Reich Valued Senior Member

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    Who are you talking to? That troll Schmelzer?
     
  17. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    That's pretty easy to figure out. Putin could destroy him with a few words - "Of course we helped you out! Haha."
     
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  18. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    If they want to remain Ukrainians, then they could become refugees and resistance partisans, as so many others have in bad times and coups.
    If they want to become Russians their choices are limited, yes. They don't live in Russia. Like Americans who want to be Mexicans, they have only a few options.
    If they decide to secede with the help of a foreign army, have a piece of Ukraine conquered and annexed by that foreign army, then they are betraying their neighbors and committing various violations of international law - as is the country involved.
    Yes. Completely. Weirdly and comically absurd. (The blacks in the US voted for the US government, and that means they are Americans.)
    As I have mentioned before, you are incapable of making accurate and meaningful statements about race in the US. You haven't got a clue. If anyone was thinking you were actually an American pretending to be some idiotic European for trolling purposes, they now know better.
    You have run your rhetoric around a circle.

    They have broken American law. That is a criminal thing to do, in America. It was also, btw, lying and cheating and injuring people for their benefit and that of foreign interests and governments, corrupting American elections and so forth - stuff that is normally illegal everywhere, because it's so obviously wrong to do. But maybe not in Russia - maybe that kind of behavior is legal in Putin's Russia, I don't know. It doesn't matter.

    Meanwhile, net has closed a bit tighter - bank fraud indictments closer to Trump's real estate interests have been handed out, and some of the predicted value of the original indictments
    ( https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/reading-the-mueller-indictment-a-russian-american-fraud
    "Ordinarily, U.S. prosecutors are wary of releasing highly specific accounts involving foreign-intelligence targets, in order to protect the “sources and methods” that allow the government to pierce electronic communications and hidden dealings. But, Sipher said, this thirty-seven-page indictment suggests that Mueller’s team made a strategic decision to include a level of detail that will help it elicit relevant documents from businesses and banks. The indictments open the way for “discovery that otherwise may not be allowed or would be hard to do without a charging document,” he said." )

    seems to have been illustrated: https://www.politico.com/story/2018...k-fraud-charges-against-manafort-gates-422335
    and brings up an interesting aspect:
    Everyone involved thinks a pardon from Trump is a real possibility, at some odds or other. Now why would that be?

    The most obvious explanation: Everybody knows
    Everybody knows that Trump has good reason to protect Manafort, to reward him for silence and/or keep him out of court, if he can.
    No one following Mueller's investigation is actually questioning whether Trump is guilty or not.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2018
  19. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Not exactly... more like his minders. You know ... the ones that are monitoring his posts.
     
  20. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Clue: You look for the people who should be very concerned about the direction of the USA and aren't.
     
  21. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

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    If you think I have failed to provide something, why should I care? You think it is nonsense, ok, your choice.

    For me, this is the central fight now. Starting with Putin's 2007 München speech, this fight for the multi-polar world is official Russian policy. Russia and China became stronger, have been essentially forced to cooperate with each other by Obama's foreign policy, which Trump is forced to continue. With Russia and China together, the unipolar world order is essentially over, or at least close to it. This is simply how the world looks like now.

    And I support that coming multi-polar world order. In 1990, I was quite happy with that unipolar world order. But the time of the US unipolar rule has nicely shown that a world government is a very bad idea and leads in a short time into a totalitarian nightmare. The old hope that some world government would lead to peace was proven wrong, the world leader has started a lot of wars just out of egoistic interests. If one compares the Western world 1990 and now, the degeneration toward fascism can be easily seen. I became certain that what happens is very bad, very dangerous, and shifting toward a totalitarian direction around 1998 or so. Today I have some hope for the future.
    So they did. They resisted, in the Donbass. Not because they wanted to remain Ukrainians (they were Russians and remained Russians), but because they wanted to defend their homeland against the fascist hordes from the West.
    Nonsense. If there is a coup, the overthrown legal president can ask other countries for military support against the forces supporting the coup. Yanukovych has made such a request. So, even the Russian army there would be in agreement with international law, and not an aggression.
    As absurd as your claims where the voting makes a Russian an Ukrainian. They are citizens of the Ukraine, but not Ukrainians, they don't, in particular, use Ukrainian language.
    But they are Russian citizens and have done this in Russia. America rules the world, so that people all around the world have to follow American law everywhere? America über alles?
    As I have said, those things which are normally illegal everywhere (like using false names to open bank accounts) can be persecuted in Russia, in a Russian court, because they are illegal according to Russian law too. But "corrupting American elections" by expressing one's opinion about Clinton, sorry, this will be legal in any country with some freedom of expression.
    Manafort is another example of the same sort. He has no connection at all to Russian government. I have looked into https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Manafort and started laughing reading the only connection:
    Really, Deripaska as a close Putin associate. ROTFL. There is a famous story in Russia about the relation Putin - Deripaska. Putin essentially forced him to sign some contract. Deripaska signed it and stand up to go away, and made some steps. Then Putin said "And give the pen back".
    Everybody in your bubble knows. But so what?
     
  22. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Putin's speech failed to deliver sound reasoning as well... which is why it failed to gain traction. Sure it looked good, sure it was delivered by a charismatic leader. However it failed in so many ways, and Putin knows it.
    A multi polar world would lead to Putin's totalitarian rule thus defeating the notion of multi polar that got him there.
    As I suggested ages ago , the world is already a multi polar world that is moving towards one with a centralized international federation. aka the UN.

    So where you get your nonsense from I do not know...
    Who do you owe your freedom to? Certainly not Putin?

    If it wasn't for the USA, Australia would be a Japanese colony and you would probably be mining salt somewhere after the communist Russian hoards conquered all of Europe after defeating the Nazi.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2018
  23. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Above all things this point is the most important one. IMO

    "It is not what Trump does that really matters, it is what he isn't doing and what he wont do that does"
     

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