As MMA fighters absorb as many techniques as they need to win a fight, simply,. they would accommodate weapon skills should they find themselves transported back in time to an ancient battlefield, ... yeah, right, like that is going to happen. Although having said that, I practice with bokken and hanbo staff. Largely because I'm probably eventually going to get arthritis in my left leg thanks to a bad break some years ago, and a stick will help keep me upright, and knowing how to use it keep me safe.
Well historically speaking Kung Fu as it’s practiced today bares very little resemblance to an method of battle that was actually used in ancient warfare. The weakness of Kung Fu as with many traditional martial arts is that over time the practice of it has become ritualized and impractical. There are many moves that are done simply for appearance sake rather then pure utilitarian reasons, and these guys only ever practice against other KF guys. Many traditional martial artists claim that Mixed martial arts would be ineffective on the street which I know not to be true. I do know that those attempting to do Kung Fu or Hapkido in a street fight are probably more likely of get killed on discovering that everything they been taught Re –fighting is a lie. Did Fred Ettish bleed on the canvas of UFC 2 for nothing? It's not nice to discover that you've been wasting time studying a system that’s bullshit but less painful then finding it out like poor old Fred.
Theres also the case of Lyoto Machida, who is the son of a Shotokan master and a high level black belt himself, and yet, nothing he does in the ring looks anything like Karate. I dont see MMA as a style. Its simply everything possible except the illegal moves...which is what you can expect to encounter on the street.
Why dont you just learn to throw knives or bo-shuriken? Even Musashi resorted to throwing his short sword on occasion.
Have you ever watched Lyoto Machida compete? His standup has many classic elements of Karate, including the wide spacing of his legs, the positioning of his hands, the angle of his body toward his opponent, the weight distribution through his legs, his basic and angular combos, his evasive and defensive tactics, and so on. Machida is a very successful fighter because of his extremely underrated grappling and his phenomenal takedown defense, which allow him to keep the fight standing. Mauricio "Shogun" Rua, who is widely regarded as one of the world's most talented Muay Thai fighters, gave Machida loads of trouble in their October bout, many believing the five-round decision should have rightfully went to "Shogun". The "illegal moves" in streetfighting occur through close contact - eye-gouging, pinching, groin strikes, biting, and so on - which are extremely difficult to execute against a skilled MMA practitioner. Many of those "illegal moves" could not be pulled off against a Thai kickboxer who would pick you apart at a distance using shin-strikes, and many of them would put the person using them in a position to quickly have their elbow or knee snapped against a Jiu Jitsui fighter via arm- or knee-bar. Usually, "illegal moves" are only useful when the person using them is fighting against an opponenet who is similar in skill and size to himself.
Ha, well, a friend and I did have a chopstick throwing contest once, although we only got them to stick in cardboard. When we tried plywood we got some evil ricochets that kept us on our toes. Bo-shuriken etc are prohibited items in the UK. A walking stick is not, plus it has that 'Zatoichi' vibe going on.
His stance is very different from Shotokan in that he stands on the balls of his feet, and leans forward slightly without chambering his fists. The classic Shotokan posture is flat footed, vertical torso, hands drawn back to the waist when striking with the opposite side.
Wouldnt that mean they also have to ban 10 inch nails? Thats what I learned to throw with...because they didnt cost anything! I just sharpened them with a grinder and cut the head off with a hacksaw.
The importation and sale of anything Ninja related was banned in the late 80's because Britain was suffering under the weight of so many Ninja related crimes. (that was satire, btw, it was banned because some knee jerking right wing asshole wanted to ban them) Yes, we can make stuff, after all, that is the Ninja culture, to find ways to make and use weapons despite prohibition of ownership of certain weapons. Proves that the right wing asshole that proposed the ban was ignorant of history. Oddly, we can still buy throwing knives, and throwing spikes, just not 'death stars'. Again, proving the ignorance of the knee jerk. As long as it's not called 'shuriken' or 'Ninja-' it seems to pass uner the radar.
What are you going to do IF they come for your swords? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/glasgow_and_west/4788881.stm Aside from the above mentioned right wing knee jerks the insurance lobby in some states has been pushing to have martial arts classified as a 'high risk activity' requiring special regulations and licensing fees for all training centers and dojos.
Karate's fine as a method of standup fighting, but I think in some styles of Karate with too much punching and kicking of air, too much focus on Kata containing a lot of elaborate and impractical moves and point fighting can screw people up. The only way to learn how to fight is to spar against a fully resistant person, if the martial arts student executes an obviously effective move against an opponent and the instructor or senior student pulls them up and says, “You not fighting right” then you should take that as a warning sign that this martial art style has lost is realistic edge. If something works it works and your going to have to contend with it in a real fight, that's why having rules like no punching to the face are just ridiculous. In JuiJitsu competitions I've had people bite me out of desperation, it’s the Mike Tyson syndrome and nothing is more certain to piss me off then having that done to me.
That happened, but it was weak legislation, banning the sale and importation of 'curved swords' with a blade length of over 50cm. I did quite well, and bought several leading up to the ban as people dumped stock. I got a folded steel odachi for £100! Jesus, I had small argument with an insurance salesman while taking out a policy some years back. He asked if I indulged in any 'dangerous sports' and he mentioned bungee jumping. Seems the fact I'd done it before, and might do it again was a black mark. I argued saying that people who had answered 'no' might go and do it later, and having done it, well, I might have ticked that box, not died, and it's a closed issue. He argued some more, and I said 'Ok what other stupid questions do we have? OK, how do you know I won't start smoking, despite answering 'no'? I informed him that only ONE person had died due to bungee jumping in the UK ever, while smoking well, we won't need to go into the numbers. He didn't tick the box in the end. Classifying martial arts as 'dangerous' is equally stupid. I bet martial artists in general have better diets, and of course get more exercise, so are actually less of a risk than couch potatoes.
And there is the problem with Karate as a style. When it becomes full contact Karate, it becomes kick boxing. Might as well practice kick boxing, therefore.
REPLY: They have never been shot at close range by a high powered rifle or even a handgun. It is all BS my friend. They die or become severly wounded just like anyone else. Do you watch those stupid movies and believe in that crap. Not only that, I have kicked the crap out of a few of them. They told me they were black belts in karate or some other martial art and I knocked the poop out of them while they were explaining to me what bad asses they were and why I should be afraid of them. It`s BS, ...TRAVELER
That's partially why I gave up shotokan karate. I had a brown belt, but it was pretty much just a piece of fabric. The training consisted mainly of moving like a robot, nothing you could use for either self defence or sport fighting. Also, I did it mainly for adrenaline, and I got bored. This used to happen to me!! I'd throw a hook punch, hit someone in the head, then be told 'That's not a proper move...'
REPLY: It worked and you were wrong ? What a hoot. I took a short karate course and learned a few good things: Snap kick, and a few others. The rest of it , I don`t think much of. A real fight is not some STYLIZED DANCE. Good to hear from you. ....traveler
Why Traditional Karate Is Not Effective For Self-Defense By WR Mann The underlining motivation in studying any type of martial activity is to protect ourselves (or others) in a real fighting situation. At first glance karate seems to provide a solution, until you look more closely at its underpinnings; then you realize it's not equipped to handle violence in the 21st Century. I often refer to karate (and other traditional Asian martial arts) as the Potemkim Village of the martial arts -- a grand facade offering significantly less in the way of substantive tactics and defensive measures than any of the reality-based defense systems. Recently, while speaking to friends visiting from Australia, the topic of self-defense came up for their daughters (age 9 and 11). They mentioned there was a karate school in their neighborhood and were considering enrolling them there. That sent chills up my spine, and with the same fervor as a surgeon desperately trying to save the life of a stroke victim; I informed them that karate would produce the least beneficial results. The reason I dissuade people from getting into karate (and other traditional martial arts) is because I don't want them misinformed like I was, studying retrograde theories and techniques that no longer have any relevance to the way we live and need to respond to. Let's be honest, all things being equal, some fighting styles are vastly superior to others. I'm not saying karate is completely ineffective (Bruce Lee did). Karate, like many other fighting styles, has the potential of stopping an attacker, however, the degree of efficiency is far less than muaythai, Brazilian jujitsu, boxing, and especially reality-based systems. Using a metaphor, the flintlock is certainly capable of stopping someone, but the M16 has a far greater degree of efficiency. "If you're up against someone who doesn't know how to fight -- yes, old-style karate can work, but if you fight an experienced streetfighter or a trained fighter, no way!" - Jon Bluming To properly put this question into perspective (why karate is not effective as a modern self-defense system) we must first discuss four topics: 1) Conditions of violence in the world today 2) Constituents of effective self-defense in the 21St-Century? 3) What are people looking for [in their self-defense training]? 4) A differentiation and clarification of fighting categories in 2003 Conditions of violence in the world today Although terrorism has been around for years, its most dramatic impact was felt on September 11, 2001, after the destruction of the World Trade Center. From this point on, the world realized that there were no safe havens left. For the first time in history, Americans were scrambling for gas masks, anthrax remedies, survival and first-aid kits. Suddenly, self-defense was no longer only someone trying to rob or punch you, it now extended to potentially surviving large-scale violence, such as nuclear attacks, bombings, poison gas and snipers. Levels of common violence have also grown and laws against defending yourself have been initiated by several governments in the past few years. Constituents of effective self-defense in the 21St-Century? Nowadays, physical violence can happen to anyone, anytime, anywhere and under any conditions. Therefore it's paramount that modern self-defense must encompass the whole gamut of possible situational and environmental scenarios. That includes surviving a bomb attack, gas and chemical attacks, a mob, snipers, muggings, and more. In general, no fighting style will totally prepare us for these scenarios; some reality-based schools at least provide awareness, avoidance and escape options. Karate (as well as other traditional styles) have been slow to add realistic elements to their training. They just go on about their business, ignoring the way today's criminals conduct themselves, or if they have, they are stuck in a time warp, as if they've never heard of home invasions, car jackings, firearms attacks and terrorists. Not only is it necessary to practice under a wide variety of conditions and circumstances but you need to be intimately familiar with all three phases of the attack cycle (pre-conflict, the conflict, and post conflict), adrenaline-dump, the use-of-force, self-triage and more. Unless this holistic approach is practiced in simulated environments, expect you or your loved ones to become potential victims. What are people looking for [in their self-defense training]? With the exception of individuals interested in martial endeavors, most people are busy with full time careers, school, family or other interests. They are disinclined to spend many years studying martial arts; the only time they seek out a protective-measures course is when something happens close to home. I can tell you for a fact, most people are not looking for "a way of life," a new religion, or grueling years of pushups and sit-ups interspersed with kata (a pattern of techniques). They "are" however looking for a set of effective and efficient techniques and tactics they can employ to escape a violent attack -- NOW! (not years from now). Not only do you need to train in the conflict stage of an attack but you need to add pre-and post-conflict training as well. Karate (as well as most traditional martial arts) ignores the pre and post conflict stages, and their methodology of teaching is of the "spoon-fed" variety. They don't even attempt to approach defensive tactics against firearms, hostage taking, store/bank robberies and multiple armed opponents; but these are very real potential situations today. A clarification and differentiation of fighting categories When you mention the term "martial arts," today, everyone immediately knows what you mean. The term has become the generic moniker for all fighting styles. What most people don't realize is there are three distinct categories. 1) Traditional-based, 2) Sports-based, and 3) Reality-based defense. Traditional-Based Traditional "arts" are historical styles originating in Asia. They include karate, jujitsu, aikido, taekwondo, numerous schools of kung fu, and much more. These styles are what the general public refers to when the term "martial art" is used; this is what we see in the movies. They incorporate the use of traditional-based costumes and employ some form of philosophical or pseudo-religious component. Although many of these systems claim to be a thousand years or older, truth be told, most of them have been around for only a hundred years or so, (with the exception of a few Chinese styles and Okinawan karate, which is about 250 years old). Generally traditional "martial arts" are the least street effective styles and take the longest time to learn. Sports-Based The second group, "sports-based fighting," originate from older styles but have been modified and updated to be effective in the ring and conform strictly to specific rules. They can be adapted for the street (in a weaponless environment). Wrestling and boxing are updated versions of their ancient Greek and Roman counterparts, Brazilian jujitsu is a western version of Japanese jujitsu and muaythai is the modernized style of Thailand's fighting systems from the 14th Century. It takes several years to become proficient in "sports-based fighting." In most cases, practitioners easily prevail over their traditional martial art cousins. This is due to "live-training" and realistic techniques. Reality-Based Defense Reality-based defense (an offshoot of police and military defensive tactics) are the most street realistic of the three groups, and emphasize simple but effective techniques for both weapons and unarmed attacks. This is also the only group that trains you in all three stages of an attack: the pre-conflict stage (threat assessment, conflict conditioning), the conflict stage (first strike, weapon awareness) and the post-conflict stage (do you run or wait for police, what do you say to the authorities, self medical triage and legal issues). Much of the reality-based "conflict stage" comes to us from combatives. Combatives originally came to us from 1930's Shanghai, and WWII; British commandos and US Marines developed it over the years to be a simple but effective method of fighting. Reality-based defense concepts such as fighting under stress, situational and environmental awareness and living an avoidance lifestyle, are more recent developments and came about as many individuals realized they couldn't solely depend on traditional arts. A good reality-defense program today incorporates not only defensive tactics against physical violence by individuals or groups but also incorporates defense for all types of modern attacks from conventional to unconventional weapons conducted in situational scenario form. Summary Karate (and similar traditional martial arts) look great in the movies; they take a very long time to learn but don't provide efficient solutions for violent confrontations in any form. They're centered on the conflict phase and ignore (if by fiat) situational and environmental circumstances. Sports-based fighting provides great skills, i.e., development of speed, power, timing etc., it takes several years to develop these skills; and -- they still may not work in real street circumstances, this is due to their sportive nature. Many reality-based systems train you in situational / environmental conditions and address all three stages of the attack stages (with and without weapons). Most important of all, reality systems provide practitioners with the proper aggressive mind-set. Basic defensive skills can be readily implemented after a short period of training (the same way police officers and combat military personnel are trained). A Brief look at Karate's Origins and Development Karate as we know it today originated in Okinawa circa 1750 AD, 141 years after Tokugawa Ieyasu ordered the Shimizu clan to invade and occupy it. Contrary to popular myth, karate had no effect whatsoever on Japan's occupation -- Okinawa still belongs to Japan after 394 years. There are two major but disparate approaches to karate, i.e., Okinawan and Japanese styles. Pre-WWII Karate was introduced into Japan in the 1920's and has evolved into additional sub-styles. Major contributors to Japanese karate were Gichen Funakoshi (Shotokan), considered to be the father of modern karate, and was the first to systematize karate with the purpose and intent of mass instruction. Gogen Yamaguchi (Goju Ryu) devised modern day free-style sparring in 1936 and recognized a link between ancient Yoga and karate. He was also responsible for the founding the All Japan Karate-do Federation. Post-WWII Modern breakthroughs in karate came with Mas Oyama (Kyokushinkai), and Kazuyoshi Ishii (Seidokan). Influenced by observing muaythai, Mas Oyama started incorporating hard contact during sparing sessions. I remember meeting him years ago Japan [as a teen], and he asked me where I was studying, I replied "with Gogen" (Yamaguchi), he laughed and said Goju practitioners were all ballerinas, and invited me to train at his school. The 12 Immutable Reasons Why Traditional Karate Is Not Effective For Self-Defense 1. The One-Strike Kill The biggest cliché of karate is the one-strike kill. This of course does not exist, but has fooled so many for years. Shigeru Egami (one of Funakoshi's top students) freely admitted there was no such thing. At one point in his career, Egami admits going into a deep depression after concluding a personal study about which martial style had the most powerful tsuki (punches). He found that karate had the least powerful tsuki, and boxing the strongest. Betting everything on one punch can get you killed. 2. Waiting for The Attack Karate philosophy states, "wait for the attack." Remember Funakoshi's maxim, "Never attack first?" This is suicidal. In real situations, the first person to strike usually walks away. The untrained public erroneously thinks you have to eat the first punch, but you give up your lawful right to self-protection by letting anyone strike you first. Criminals take advantage of this civilized mindset. If you feel that violence is about to break out, strike first. 3. On Stances Karate, employs some of the most ineffective stances in martial arts. Deep, low karate stances make you completely immobile; they plant you in one spot, making quick movements extremely difficult. You may as well hang a sign around your neck saying "strike me at will, I can't move." If you recall early kickboxing, the first thing they got rid of were those limiting stances. 4. Karate as a Way Of Life Years ago while in Japan, Gogen (Yamaguchi) once came up to me and asked, "I never see you practice kata, why?" I replied that I thought it was an exercise in futility, having no functional value. He grew upset and chastised me by saying, without kata, we're just animals, like boxers or wrestlers, I replied, "that's OK, I just want the skills." More than anything else, karate people have a fear about being labeled "killers." Their reply is always, "I follow the path, karate is a way of life." I guess they feel absolved from their inner conflicts or sociological guilt when they say that, sort of like what confession does for a Catholic. 5. Spirituality and Meditation For many Japanese karateka, religion and martial arts are inseparably linked. Japanese spirituality and meditation are not a function of karate; they're emblematic of the culture that developed it. Westerners really buy into this big time. It's actually a direct affront to your personal beliefs. What if a Japanese boxer wanted to train in the U.S. with a Baptist coach, would he have to join the church, sing out loud, clap his hands, dance and get down? Changing your spiritual identity in order to learn self-defense is ludicrous! Mas Oyama once asked me how much time I meditate per day. I told him -- I don't, I have my own religion; I don't need to replace it with another. Meditation does not necessarily benefit any martial activity. For example, I recall, in the 1983 Olympics in Korea, the Koreans had the strongest archery team in the world. They attributed their secret of success to their late night meditation practices in cemeteries. Did it help the men's team win - no, an American walked away with the gold. Did he meditate? No, before each match he was listening to Van Halen! 6. Breaking Objects can Break You! Karate, more than any other martial art is renowned for its breaking demonstrations; but anyone can break inanimate objects, it's easy and you don't have to study karate to do so. Do breaking boards and bricks translate into fighting ability? Again Egami comments that breaking objects is very different than striking a human body, humans are resilient. He goes farther, saying that even "makiwara" training is harmful to the body, and stopped doing it already in the late '50's. Robert Smith, in his book "Martial Musings" notes that Mas Oyama damaged his hands so much he couldn't even place a blanket on top of them when he went to sleep. Continued breaking over a period of years brings with it such delights as arthritis and other degenerative diseases. 7. The Kata Crutch A major part of karate practice focuses on kata. I've never understood why so many people defend it so vehemently. There's almost a cult-like obsession with doing it. Perhaps karateka feel it grants them a special kind of spiritual dispensation, allowing them to indulge in the study of fighting. Kata however is nothing more than several techniques strung together; a tool to help beginners understand how techniques flow. For advanced practitioners, it constrains your progress and adds no functional value to your fighting skills. Jon Bluming said it best, something to the effect of, "it takes up time, and the money rolls in." 8. Karate Doesn't Prepare You for the Street Unlike a sparring match, there are no rules on the street, no time-outs, no referees to separate you; there's no sanctity of life. Street fights don't start at sparring distance; many times they suddenly erupt chest-to-chest, many times from behind without warning. Your attacker won't necessarily stop if you scream in pain. Unlike the smooth floor of the dojo, the street and pavement can be uneven, broken and contain dangerous objects you can fall over. In all the years I spent in karate, there was never a word about fighting under adrenaline stress conditions, the use-of-force, gross motor skills, and absolutely no legal considerations. Karate is only concerned with the attack stage of the encounter; no mention is made about the pre and post-conflict stages. Environmental and situational awareness, preemptive strike, what to do if you're hurt, do you run away, or make a citizen's arrest? Many karate techniques employ fine motor skills; under stress these are the first skills that abandon you. To work under excited conditions, techniques must be simple and based on gross motor skills. If you've been in fights, you know that after a few seconds of wild striking, many people start grabbing each other and quite often fall to the ground. How is your ground game? Do you know how to fight in a parking lot at midnight, on sand, gravel, on ice on a winter's day? Training barefoot in a dojo doesn't prepare you for any of these scenarios. 9. Karate Makes you Stiff and Rigid For years people have avoided weight training for fear that they would become stiff. If they only knew the truth -- weight training actually makes you flexible and supple; it's karate that makes you stiff! I've spoken at length to many boxing, kali, Brazilian Jujitsu and muaythai instructors and they all agree, karate produces a tenseness and rigidity that seems almost irreversible. I believe it's all those hard air punches and kicks, tense kata and deep immovable stances contributing to this condition. You see this state most pronounced when karate students take up reality-based defense. 10. Karate is Ineffective Against Modern Weapons The term Empty-Hand says it all; the main focus of karate is on unarmed combat. They do practice traditional weapons however, but what use is sai, tonfa, sickle, and bo practice when you can't carry them. This is unrealistic in 2003, where attacks are mainly carried out with guns, knives and impact weapons. When you typically hear of karateka being hurt in an attack, it usually involves a knife or gun. Whenever we do seminars employing weapons scenarios, it's usually the most advanced karateka that get killed the quickest. 11. Karate Takes Too Long to Learn, and You Still Can't Fight! In terms of effort spent, to proportion of effectiveness gained, traditional karate is one of the least efficient systems of any fighting style. Too much time is spent on the inanities of rituals and form. Most karate schools spend countless hours on kata or mindless sparring, as if this will prepare students for a real fight, but it doesn't. Free sparring in karate only teaches you to fight other (barefoot) karateka's in a dojo (school) environment. Kata practice is a primitive form of shadow boxing, nothing more. There usually is no counter-knife, counter-firearms training, if it is taught all, it's usually presented in a rigid step-by-step process, having no relation to what a real attack looks like. 12. The Apotheosis of the Master I've always felt uncomfortable with the semi-deification of the so-called martial arts master. It just goes against the grain of my western upbringing. My goal in learning fighting was not to become a supplicant of an old man with a tough reputation. I believe that's another reason why mixed martial arts (i.e., BJJ, muaythai, boxing, and Filipino martial arts) have become so popular. There's no groveling involved just mutual respect. In the west, a coach doesn't demand a special status, over and beyond his normal duties. A coach guides athletes in their respective sports. His goal is to encourage, goad and train his charges to success. He is the father, the friend and the teacher; athletes trust him and his judgment. Bringing karate into the 21st-Century To modernize karate I suggest the following: 1) Take away the uniform, belts and add shoes (use the same clothes you normally wear to work or play) 2) remove the useless stances, 3) remove katas 4) instead of rigid air punching/kicking do drills with mitts 5) add some realistic gross motor based techniques, and take away more complicated moves 6) allow attacks on fallen opponents, and include some groundwork 7) Employ realistic tactics against knives and guns and most importantly start training in all three phases of the attack. Why study karate at all? I have no problem with people practicing traditional karate for the sake of art or culture. If that's the case, supplement it with a realistic modern fighting method. The problem I have with karate is that all too often it's represented to the public as an effective and efficient fighting system for the street -- which it is definitely NOT. __________________
Most of those were ones I had myself in mind when I gave it up. I was a CRAP fighter when I first switched to kickboxing. Those rigid stances and stupid blocks were ingrained in my muscle memory. Logically I knew I should use different ones, but in the heat of actual sparring I was all instinct and I went with what I knew. It took me a while to change and get good at actually fighting as opposed to just farting about doing heavily stylized moves.
