The Ideal of the Noble Scientist

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by Magical Realist, May 29, 2015.

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  1. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    Why are YOU so down on imagination and creativity? Why would anyone be? It's what geniuses in all fields--art, music, science, architecture, literature, invention, business, design, etc--use to innovate and excel. It's why Einstein said: "Imagination is more important than knowledge." I suppose people who lack imagination have alot of resentment against those who have a gift for it. But that's more about them just accepting who they are, not about imagination itself.
     
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  3. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Heh... but like so much else, a quote can be misused and abused... and Einstein even addressed this:

    "Many things which go under my name are badly translated from the German or are invented by other people". spoken to George Seldes, compiler of The Great Quotations (1960), which you can find in An Einstein Dictionary, p. 175

    I had no trouble understanding his meaning there - though, you have to take the entire post, instead of just a single part of it (surely you aren't taking statements out of context to try and cause a problem, are you DMoE?)

    Take Einstein's imagination without the knowledge and science and incredible repository of information (not to mention his penchant for finding ways to test his theories so rigorously) and what would you have? Stick that imagination in your average 20 year old dropout and the chances of them being able to come up with the ideas that Einstein did is so infinitesimal as to be as an asymptote for the equation y = 1/x...

    And as you have been told many times now... imagination on its own is worthless without the knowledge and the facilities to test and rationalize and logically think through what you have thought. Otherwise, you're just another raving lunatic.
     
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  5. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    So you're saying that was a misquote or a "bad translation" of Einstein? Do you have some evidence for that?

    Here's two more Einstein quotes:

    “The gift of fantasy has meant more to me than my talent for absorbing positive knowledge."

    “Imagination is everything. It is the preview of life’s coming attractions.”

     
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  7. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    Actually people with great imaginations are the saner people. It's the logical hyperrational ones that end up in the looney bin. The ones obsessed with counting and listing and noticing details. The one's who have to count the number of cracks on the sidewalk just to get home. It is logic that is conducive to mental problems, not fantasy. The gift of imagination frees us from the compulsive delusions of having to know and keep track of everything. It attunes us to our own unconscious nature, which tends only to become repressed and denied by rationalists.
     
  8. dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

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    To me it seems like that is kind of what MR is trying to say...kind of...maybe...
    ...only he seems to be saying that "scholarship" or "education" does not guarantee any "good ideas" or "imagination"...
    ...and you both seem to agree that "good ideas" or "imagination" are of great importance.

    So, maybe, just maybe there is not all that much difference between your views...maybe...
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2015
  9. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Can you provide a source for that quote (and these two new ones) is the more relevant question - and saying "I found it on the internet" doesn't cut it... the simple fact is, I gave you a source for my quote, where Einstein HIMSELF said he was frequently misquoted - don't like it, take it up with Einstein.


    Hm... I'm sure you have facts, figures, and statistics to back up this claim, right?
     
  10. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    So iow you have no evidence it is a misquote or a bad translation. You DO realize that's called lying don't you?

    As per Sci Forum rules, I have only to produce an argument/explanation or evidence for my claim. I presented my argument. That's good enough.

    "Appropriate supporting evidence or explanations should be posted together with any opinion, especially on contentious issues. Sciforums is not your personal blog, and should not be used to promote your unsupported opinions. Links and references are always welcome, though a convincing argument will often do just as well or better."
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2015
  11. Daecon Kiwi fruit Valued Senior Member

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    That's all you EVER present. Arguments. Never evidence.
     
  12. dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

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    ...
     
  13. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    And you present neither. So what?
     
  14. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    And that's the sum of it all!
    No alternative hypothesis pusher, no anti science nut has ever, or will ever achieve any difference or recognised advancement in science on a science forum.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2015
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  15. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    It simply means the way a lay person may interpret it, through misunderstandings, misinterpretations or any number of reasons. Any of those reasons may lead to the "blinkered view" I speak of.

    Albert Einstein as a scientists knew full well that Imagination goes hand in hand with knowledge, despite the railing against that reasonable logical interpretations that those with agendas like to push.
    He was emphasising a point, regarding imagination...nothing more nothing less. And that point was that Imagination must not be underestimated.

    And of course my statement added far more to the discussions then most have added for the reasons I have already stated, and certainly far more to the discussions than any post consisting of " ... " or " yaafisfo" or similar acronyms.
     
  16. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    Yeah sure they are

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    Particularly those that imagine ghosts goblins and poltergeists stuff!

    Now that is a great example of what I have been posting about. Imagination, taken to the nth degree of stupidity, without any reason, logic, knowledge or evidence.
     
  17. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    You're lying again. He said nothing of the sort. He said imagination is MORE important than knowledge. And then even gave the reason for that statement:

    "Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited, whereas imagination embraces the entire world, stimulating progress, giving birth to evolution."
     
  18. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    You as usual seem confused. I know what Einstein said. I was the first to post the full text of what he said.
    I'm insisting though that as a scientist, he meant exactly what I said he meant...that is imagination is just as important as knowledge and goes hand in hand with it. He was in actual fact emphasising a point re imagination, similar for example, you telling your Mrs or girl friend, that she has eyes like sparkling diamonds.
    Again, I'm sure Einstein would view imagination taken to the extreme of accepting ghosts etc, on the evidence of some blurry film that can be easily doctored, as rather stupid and crazy.
    So either you are the bare faced liar, or just plainly confused...which is it?
     
  19. dumbest man on earth Real Eyes Realize Real Lies Valued Senior Member

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    ...
     
  20. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Hmm, not sure if I should feel offended or laugh at this pathetic attempt at libel... first of all, I never said it was a misquote (which you would notice if you bothered to read). Second, even if I had said directly that it was, I have more evidence to support it being a misquote (a direct quote from Einstein, with references and citation) than you do on it being accurate (oh, I found it on the internet, so it must be true).


    Indeed, a CONVINCING argument will do well - however, you have not made a convincing argument - rather, you posted a quote and attributed it to a famous scientist... yet you seem incapable of backing that claim up. That should be a simple task - after all, if he said it, surely you can show at least one source on where he said it? Or, are you being dishonest again?


    http://www.saturdayeveningpost.com/wp-content/uploads/satevepost/what_life_means_to_einstein.pdf

    "I believe in intuitions and inspirations. I sometimes feel that I am right. I do not know that I am."
    "I am enough of the artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world."

    In other words, knowledge without imagination is stagnant; however, imagination without knowledge is foolish. He admits that what he thinks he doesn't claim to be right without testing it, until it is proven. That, MR, is the fundamental difference between someone such as Einstein and... well, honestly, someone like yourself. You are so self-assured and certain that you are right that you REFUSE to acknowledge evidence to the contrary, even when it is overwhelming.

    That is a great article to read, if you haven't done so before... it sheds a lot of light on the man behind the mythos.

    You've been warned about this type of behavior before... guess it didn't sink in. Maybe it will this time? One can hope.
     
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  21. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    "Let us begin, then, with the mad-house; from this evil and fantastic inn let us set forth on our intellectual journey. Now, if we are to glance at the philosophy of sanity, the first thing to do in the matter is to blot out one big and common mistake. There is a notion adrift everywhere that imagination, especially mystical imagination, is dangerous to man's mental balance. Poets are commonly spoken of as psychologically unreliable; and generally there is a vague association between wreathing laurels in your hair and sticking straws in it. Facts and history utterly contradict this view. Most of the very great poets have been not only sane, but extremely business-like; and if Shakespeare ever really held horses, it was because he was much the safest man to hold them. Imagination does not breed insanity. Exactly what does breed insanity is reason. Poets do not go mad; but chess-players do. Mathematicians go mad, and cashiers; but creative artists very seldom. I am not, as will be seen, in any sense attacking logic: I only say that this danger does lie in logic, not in imagination."===G.K. Chesterton
     
  22. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Then explain men like Edgar Allen Poe and Salvador Dali...
     
  23. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    Losing track of what you said? Here's the statement you asked for facts and figures in support of:

    That has nothing to do with the quotes from Einstein. And that, as you can see, IS an argument.
    Now I'm returning you to my ignore list because I frankly don't waste my time with liars.
     
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