The idea of a government cover-up.

Discussion in 'Free Thoughts' started by garbonzo, Oct 17, 2015.

  1. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    Indeed. The existence of a place to hide stuff is circumstantial and certainly no evidence one way or the other. I have a shed in my back garden, a perfect place to hide gold bullion if I had stolen it from Fort Knox. It is unassuming and almost invisible in its mundanity. Clearly that gives credence to the theory that I have stolen gold bars from there, right?

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    As you say, it seems to be trivial that governments keep secrets. And it seems to be the unwillingness of governments to reveal upon demand the secrets they do keep (for whatever reason) that gives rise to (possibly exaggerated) notions of what those secrets may be, and what else the government may not be telling us. Almost a case of if they don't show us what is in every square foot of Area 51, for example, then it must be because of [insert theory here].
    Conspiracy theories are seemingly pedalled on a shift of burden of proof, for people to have to show that aliens don't exist for example, to prove the conspiracy theory incorrect. And if you can't, well, that's clearly because the theory is correct, right? And you're simply a denier if you say otherwise, or you're even part of the cover-up itself, wittingly or not.

    Proving a cover-up of secrets is one thing, but proving that the secret being covered up is what the conspiracy theorist claims it is is an entirely different matter. And proving the former is no credence toward the specifics of the latter.
     
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  3. milkweed Valued Senior Member

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    Baldeee said:
    True, but there seemed to be an implication that the availability of a place to facilitate the hiding of something leant credence to that something existing.

    If you do then you must concur that the existence of Area 51 itself lends no credence to the notion that alien technology either exists or does not exist on this planet, and thus it merely adds irrational fuel to fires that are already within the mind of the theorist, for whatever reason they might be there (rational or not).

    End re-quote

    Like it or not the UFO believers have some very valid points when talking about government cover-up. Past behavior (especially institutional) can be predictive of future behavior. Keep in mind, the soviets printed satellite photos of Area 51 in 1988 and it took until 2013 for the CIA to admit... We have peter jennings interviewing people who were there describing the direction the AF wanted Blue Book to take (now retired and beyond the keep it quiet for 30 years docs they signed while "just doing their jobs"), people with an interest in the topic going through the gov records and saying Hey wait a minute there is around 5% (not including the absolutely ridicules conclusions), there is the Low memo, etc but you dont want to talk about that, nope. You think your having a discussion when your only retort to Area 51 is, Well it doesnt mean they did put UFOs there. Thats It? Thats the best you can do? Then you spend the rest of the post playing its all my fault.

    I understand Some people cannot discuss a topic without making it about the poster, which you are clearly trying to make it about me. I really do try to avoid that in discussions and I have pointed out to you, thats what you are doing and you just cant help it. So find someone else to discuss the topic with. If I want repeated denials or deflections, I can look them up on .gov websites thankyouverymuch.
     
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  5. Baldeee Valued Senior Member

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    And your point with the bolded section?
    Where have I said that theorists are necessarily irrational.
    If they do hold that the existence of Area 51 is in any way support for the theory that the government is covering up alien tech, then yes, they would be irrational in that matter, as previously explained.
    Do you disagree with that?
    Have I suggested that being irrational with regard that mean they are being irrational with everything they claim?
    No.
    So maybe you want to stop trying to score points.
    This isn't a pissing contest.
    I raised issue with the implication of your question, and I still do.
    You have made far more of it than it needed to be.
    And you still haven't addressed it.
    Some discussions are general, others can be to address specific points a person has made.
    Why are you now trying to obfuscate the matter by detracting from it, and doing so with such defensiveness?
    I struggle to understand your belligerent stance.
    If by fault you mean that you were the one that raised the question, then yes, you are demonstrably at fault.
    You are also making this personal when it is not.
    So yes, that is your fault as well.
    All I ask is that you address the point raised, which you haven't done.
    I am making it about you only in that you raised the question that I have issue with.
    Nothing more personal than that.
    Mountain out of molehill springs to mind.
    You also seem to want to be held unaccountable for anything you say.
    Doesn't always work here, I'm afraid.
    Oh, sorry, too personal for you?

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  7. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    Baldeee, I wouldn't waste too much time over it, if I were you. I think you have articulated your point well enough. Others can either see the implication within such a question, and the irrationality that using it as support for their position entails, or they can't. And if they can't then no amount of discussion will help them see it.
    And the only thing that loses out will be the thread itself.
     
  8. Yazata Valued Senior Member

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    I don't think that the US government ever took the idea that ufos are alien spaceships tremendously seriously. Project Bluebook isn't really the kind of response one would expect if the government really believed that technological superior space-aliens were visiting Earth from across interstellar space. It's pretty evident that they weren't sure what they had and no doubt were under a lot of pressure to investigate from politicians (who were hearing from their constituents) and from the press (who were stirring the whole thing up to sell papers).

    The investigation revealed that most reports were probably misidentified mundane phenomena. While there was a residual set of reports that couldn't be identified, there wasn't any tangible or unambiguous evidence that pointed to aliens or spaceships. So the government shrugged off ufos. I don't know of any persuasive evidence that anyone at the top levels of the US or any other national government believe otherwise, let alone have knowledge of crashed alien spaceships or recovered alien artifacts.

    I don't think of that as unfortunate.

    Probably because they think that the phenomenon is a mix of misidentified mundane phenomena, over-active imaginations and contemporary popular folklore. They see no more need to concern themselves with ufos than with ghost hauntings and religious miracles.

    The original post was talking about crashed alien spaceships being recovered and taken to secret bases where hordes of mysterious scientists swarm over them. And what's more, it was about the existence of an imaginary "cabal", with the almost omnipotent power to control release of any information about the aliens anywhere on Earth, not only by Washington DC, but by Moscow, Beijing and even Raqqah Syria (the Islamic State). That's pretty clearly a rather paranoid idea about the world being secretly governed by a hidden world government of unimaginable power.

    That last, the dark, alienated and conspiratorial political edge to the myth, is what seems to me to be new and different from the ufo myth of the 1950's. Some 'ufologists' today seem to be more interested in denouncing this imaginary secret world government than in investigating aliens.
     
  9. milkweed Valued Senior Member

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    Again. its all about me not the topic.

    EDIT:You have made your intent on which way you desire the discussion to go, as in :
    Some discussions are general, others can be to address specific points a person has made.
    /EDIT
    So I will ask you once again to find someone else to discuss this with. Thats the 2nd request.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2015
  10. Yazata Valued Senior Member

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    The original assertion suggested that crashed alien spaceships have been recovered and taken to secret bases for analysis. Is there any credible evidence that is true?

    And the original post referenced a "cabal" that is able to suppress any release of information about the aliens and is responsible for disinformation about ufos. But if aliens are visiting the Earth, presumably they aren't just visiting the United States. Presumably the Chinese, Russians, Europeans, Brazilians, Australians, Japanese, Indians and many other know about the aliens' presence too. So any "cabal" responsible for suppressing information about the aliens would have to be able to exert its invisible power worldwide. That suggests a secret world government of unimaginable power. Is there any credible evidence that it exists?

    Its existence has never been secret. Here's an interesting history:

    http://www.dreamlandresort.com/pete/no_secret.html

    The aviation community calls it 'Groom Lake'. While it started out as a CIA site (known at the time as 'the ranch') for developing spy-planes in conjunction with the Lockheed 'skunk works, it's currently a US Air Force facility, occupying one corner of the huge Nellis Air Force Range.

    The Nellis Range is extraordinary, a large area of Nevada desert north of Las Vegas, with a land area of about 4,000 square miles (the size of the country of Lebanon) where access is restricted, and controlled military airspace of about 12,000 square miles.

    The sky above hosts the legendary annual Red Flag Exercises. These are the world's largest air combat exercises, welcoming hundreds of fighter jets from the USAF and US allies all around the world. They divide into 'red' and 'blue' forces and engage in large scale mock combat, trying out equipment, strategies and techniques. It's the only place where dissimilar aircraft and air forces can go up against each other on the scale of hundreds of aircraft, complete with AWACS control and electronic jamming and all of that stuff.

    The western edge of the Nellis Range contains the Nevada Test Site, the former nuclear weapons test site. It's still used by Livermore and Los Alamos for R&D purposes, that no longer include nuclear detonations. At the time the CIA was active on 'the ranch', fallout from atmospheric tests would sometimes fall there.

    The southern edge used to host the Indian Springs Auxiliary Airfield, which more recently was upgraded to become Creech Air Force Base. It's the site from which drones all around the world are remotely controlled.

    The northern edge hosts something called the Tonopah Test Range, the subject of a lot of secrecy. I believe that it's engaged in electronic warfare research.

    And the eastern edge hosts Groom Lake. This is a dry lake bed upon which long runways have been constructed. It's sometimes called 'Area 51' because some old 1950's topographical map was divided into numbered squares and Groom Lake was in square 51.

    Testing moved there from Edwards AFB north of LA because Edwards was too public and visible. Foreign agents could set up cameras outside the base perimeter and film aircraft tests. A more secure site was needed where aircraft could be tested whose shapes would reveal too much about their aerodynamics.

    In the 1980's, Groom Lake was associated in the aviation press with the perhaps-mythical 'Aurora' project, said to be a hypersonic aircraft, capable of traveling at very high mach numbers. In the 1990's and more recently, Groom Lake was definitely involved in stealth aircraft development and many stealth prototypes flew there. Groom Lake is probably up to its eyeballs currently in UCAV development. (Unmanned Combat Air Vehicles, robot fighter planes and attack jets.)

    In just the last few years, large new hangers have been constructed at Groom Lake, believed to be associated with the LRSB program. (Long Range Strike Bomber, the B-2 stealth bomber replacement. Several prototypes are believed to already be flying and undergoing extensive testing.)

    Anyone who is interested in what's happening at Groom Lake should read 'Aviation Week and Space Technology', a very authoritative trade publication.

    The Air Force has never tried to hide its existence. They just don't talk about the projects they are working on there. It's some of the projects that are 'black' (unacknowledged), not the air base.

    That depends on how big it was and what we intended to do with it. (If we just had a small alien wrench that slipped from somebody's tentacle and wasn't picked up, and if we didn't plan to study it, any government vault would do.)

    I do agree with you that if we had a crashed alien space vehicle and wanted to subject it to intense scientific and engineering analysis in a very secure location, the Nellis Range would be perfect.

    Of course, that isn't an argument that there is in fact alien technology on the Nellis Range. I'm unaware of any convincing evidence that there is.

    My point was that if space aliens are visiting Earth, we wouldn't expect them to only fly over the United States. Ufos have been reported all around the world. So if the US government knows that they are really alien spacecraft, one would expect the Russians to know, along with the Chinese, Japanese, Australians, Indians, British, French, Germans, Italians, Brazilians, Argentines, Canadians and many others.

    So if there is some conspiracy, some all-powerful "cabal", that is preventing knowledge of the aliens from becoming public in the United States, it must be similarly effective everywhere else. Is it realistic to imagine any small group with the ability to exercise that kind of global power undetected?

    I think that belief in an all-powerful and manipulative global conspiracy able to pull the entire planet's strings while remaining completely out of sight is a more recent and much darker development in the flying saucer myth, expressive of political and cultural alienation.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2015
  11. milkweed Valued Senior Member

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    Well that is true. We have the IRS taking the 5th regarding tax exemption applications.
    EPA using yahoo accounts to avoid record keeping.
    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news...emails-show-epa-directors-extensive/?page=all

    Clinton and the private email server and those are just off the top of my head. She wants to run a government that she doesnt trust?

    Yeah. I still have my copy of newsweek dec 1993 regarding human guinea pigs and plutonium experiments that doctors complied with.

    Oh, I can see why the government would consider a foreign life force, with (according to various reports) the ability to spin circles around our strategic air defense a matter of nat. sec. best kept quiet. And the same goes for if they recovered a crashed ship.
     
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  12. milkweed Valued Senior Member

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    The original post suggests one reads the information provided by a bunch of different researchers who make these claims. I am not familiar, nor particularily inclined to seek out that info. I was also disappointed the op didnt bother to provide some links.

    But I cant say I've never heard of some of these various claims.

    But they havent managed to suppress the info. They deny it is all. If I came across a landed ufo, wtf am I going to do to 'capture one'. Shoot it down? I dont typically carry a gun, or a camera, and even if I had my camera, its shit for taking night pictures of fireflies let alone a ufo zipping by.

    quote from wiki on area 51 -
    The Groom Lake test facility was established in April 1955 by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) for Project Aquatone, the development of the Lockheed U-2 strategic reconnaissance aircraft.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_51

    Now you most certainly could have argued Area 51 didnt exist as a CIA facility in 1947. And given the history, it is unlikely in 1947 it was secure enough to hide a UFO crashed in 1947. But causually reading over the roswell stuff, no one claims they did use it for the roswell crash at that time. IIRC the claims of ufos at Area 51 are claims they moved them there later.

    Now I have to attend to things that prevent my access to a computer.
     
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  13. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    So what?
    Area 51 was named in 1967 in a CIA document about SR-71 missions.
    Whether or not the CIA officially admitted its existence is largely irrelevant since the facility is primarily an air force site - and its existence has been public knowledge more or less since its inception - including a press release in 1955.

    Slightly misleading in that
    A) Groom Lake is one single facility in the whole of Area 51, and
    B) Groom Lake was originally an airfield - but had been abandoned.

    Regardless of any "secret" about what the site was officially called[1] the fact is that its existence was known, and , because of the overall size of the site then - of necessity - what happens in the "interior" is not particularly visible to outsiders.

    1 And, here in the UK at least we've been treated to "in depth" magazine articles about what goes on there almost annually for decades.
     
  14. darksidZz Valued Senior Member

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    I'm reminded of the story of a pilot flying over land and there being a huge zipper like separation occurring to reveal a base underneath. Very creepy story
     
  15. milkweed Valued Senior Member

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    QUOTE from link below ~~ The first hurdle was the government's refusal to acknowledge even the existence, let alone the name, of the facility. We supplied pictures of the base. We supplied affidavits from workers at the base. We even submitted pictures of planes taking off in Las Vegas and then the same planes landing at Area 51. At one point, I offered to drive the judge personally to the base and point at it from a mountaintop. (The government then acquired the mountaintop and barred the public.) Ultimately, the government confirmed the existence of the base only after we located Russian satellite pictures. It turned out that the Russians had a virtual catalog of pictures of Area 51 for public sale. You just needed a credit card.

    http://articles.latimes.com/2013/aug/21/opinion/la-oe-turley-area-51-20130821

    Point being they were hiding its existence regardless of whether the people with questions had any concerns about ufo/aliens. If the gov going to take the 5th, that means we get to come to conclusions without gov input. Happens in trials all the time.

    I am unsure what the Chinese say about ufo/aliens. I really dont know the 'official position' on ufos/aliens in russia either. However:

    Do you really think the Chinese government would admit to being powerless against a foreign invader, earth-bound or not? And taking this a step further, each of the big three above, china, russia, usa would do anything in their power to be the first, alone, in acquiring such technology for themselves, and if it became obvious to peoples of other nations, these other nations would demand access to that technology for themselves rendering effective defense moot. And of the three I mention, only one has the very real issue of freedom of speech, the other two can squash those efforts easily (russia less so now).

    Quote from link below:
    ~~ Amongst the files is a 1995 briefing by a UFO Intelligence Officer which states that although there is no hard evidence for alien craft, if sightings were indeed alien visitors there were a number of possible reasons for their visit including
    “a) military reconnaissance b) scientific c) tourism”.
    The briefing paper also states that if the reports were to be believed, alien technology was far superior to ours and goes on to suggest that the Ministry of Defence could use the UFO technology, if it existed.

    http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documents/ufo-files-reveal-behind-the-scenes-of-the-ufo-desk.pdf

    They dont have to pull the entire planets strings, only the strings within their respective borders and there is internal motive to exclude releasing that information to the world in general.
     
  16. river

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    True
     
  17. kelkittens Banned Banned

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    I have evidence to both and I will give that evidence to someone who can give me a million dollars. contact me by email if you have the money. Otherwise I won't give anything free to those on my computer. Since I know no one will contact me I know there is a cover up. That is how I know. When I so called evidence is stolen or blocked than there is someone else just trying to cash in, so my real stuff is hidden. So please if your serious contact me, I'm not that much of a fool to just release that kind of evidence. When I say evidence I have a real life creature on hand. You don't believe me and think me a troll. I have been sitting on this evidence for 13 yrs while made fun of. So nothing comes of it. It is your loss!!!
     
  18. Kristoffer Giant Hyrax Valued Senior Member

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    Go away.
     
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  19. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    I think not. We save a million dollars.
     
  20. kelkittens Banned Banned

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    If I can see you are real in these dimensions than why couldn't I see what has happen from my view, say's this watcher visitor.
    My song... I'm alive but born dying but how do I prove this to this visitor?
    For me to step into their world I would become a spirit, for them to touch me is to pass through, star gazers entwined.
    I'm a spec than would trans-pass their large massive dimensions, a "Who" like Dr. Suess, I'm here but where are you?
    The creature replies I'm here watching from a far distance, its how I know your lives and deaths.
     
  21. origin In a democracy you deserve the leaders you elect. Valued Senior Member

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    This makes no sense.
     
  22. river

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    The government has been covering up things for 65yrs. At least ; about UFO'S .

    We have thousands of sightings for these yrs.

    But we wait for the " government " to " varify " what WE HAVE SEEN .

    Come on people; really; so by implication do you rely on the government to tell you what is real ? Really?
     
  23. Daecon Kiwi fruit Valued Senior Member

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    Why do you only rely on cranks, crackpots and idiots to tell you what is real, river?
     

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