Most scientists deny the biblical flood because they claim there is no evidence that water flooded the earth even though over 200 ancient cultures have passed along accounts of a global flood where one family survived. Yet this is what scientists claim happened in the Jurassic period: "The Jurassic geological record is good in western Europe, where extensive marine sequences indicate a time when much of the continent was submerged under shallow tropical seas; famous locales include the Jurassic Coast World Heritage Site and the renowned late Jurassic lagerstätten of Holzmaden and Solnhofen.[6] In contrast, the North American Jurassic record is the poorest of the Mesozoic, with few outcrops at the surface.[7] Though the epicontinental Sundance Sea left marine deposits in parts of the northern plains of the United States and Canada during the late Jurassic, most exposed sediments from this period are continental, such as the alluvial deposits of the Morrison Formation." So they know there is much evidence of a global flood yet deny the biblical account because it's in the bible. Instead, they make up stories of an ice age that no one in history has recounted.Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! That's no different than looking at a forest and imagining that trees once covered the whole earth. :bugeye: So why is the imagination considered evidence in science? :shrug:
Bit of a convoluted mess, but let me try and answer some points you raise. That's because there is no evidence in the recent sediment record that a flood occurred. Few important point here: - marine sediments preserve more readily as they are formed in subsiding basins - you can tell marine sediments by looking at rocks type and sedimentary structures (e.g. limestone=marine, herringbone bedding=tidal currents, etc) - marine sediments contain marine fossils The above quote says nothing of a global flood and in fact points out some continental (i.e. land!) sediments in the US; the alluvial (or river) deposits. No real evidence of a global flood is presented above. There is no evidence for it at all (if you know of some, do let me know). The ice age has plenty of evidence, such as U-valleys (evidence of a passing glacier), crag and tail formation, striation marks, moraine deposits, etc. The list goes on and on. Imagination is not evidence in science. In geology the evidence is the rock record - go study it and you can see it for yourself. I suggest you do some reading on geology. GeologyRocks is a good place to start Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
I'm not sure if you're aware of this but there was no Human life in the jurassic period, so how could that have been Noah's Flood?
There might have been some serious flooding circa 15000 BC. "Global", as in COVERING THE WHOLE EARTH - NO. reducing humanity to a handful of pairs? NO. The last serious genetic bottle neck is about 90000 YA to about 1000-2000 pairs of humans. Chances are: at the end of the ice age, many flood plains got partially or permanently submerged and probably quite suddenly from tidal waves caused by huge slabs of ice falling off ice caps, into the oceans(like try to imagine a massive slab of ice the size of Rhode Island or the Isle of Man suddenly displacing that much water or perhaps even larger). If cultures existed back then, they would very likely be at these locations or near them. I.E they would ALL be affected. The memory of that is passed down the generations and it would be very significant for cultures/trade places/perhaps even cities to "remember". It seems to have certainly taken a central role in Sumerian culture/religion and all it's descendants(including the 3 big ones we now have). Considering the Sumerians lived on a flood plain and even detail nearly exactly how the flood rode over some of their cities, it probably was a more recent flood than the ones that may have happened as a result of the end of the ice age.
There is quite good / solid evidence that the Med Sea has at times not been connected to the Atlantic ocean. Even today it is more salty as the evaporation rate is higher than the rain + river influx. (There is a net influx of sea water from the Atlantic to keep both at same level. Without this influx there would be essentially no water in the Med basin, only salt deposites.) When the contintial shelfs were exposted (large amounts of water stored on land as ice and snow) during ice ages, this influx was absent, but as the stored on land water melted the Atlantic level rose again to the point that high tides began to wash over into the dry (salt deposits are still found buried in the Med bottom mud) Med basin. This caused errosion, which rapidly deepend into a well defined channnel (the submerged channel is still available to subs or sonar depth finders) between Gibralter and Africa (Tangeres?) I do not know but probably in less than a month after even mean tide was filling the Med basin it was full again. Many must have sought safety on realitive high locations but drowned as the waters continued to rise more every day. Noah was, if he even existed, probably a wealthy man who had large boat and got himsefl and some of his better animals to the African coast.
Wrong. Much of the continent being submerged underneath seas is absolutely evidence of a global flood. But again, since the whole goal of scientists is to try to prove there is no God and instead, play God themselves, instead, they make up stories that NO ONE in history can document. :bugeye: Any child can do that. In fact, I've heard every explanation for the sedimentary rock layers all over the earth from giant hurricanes (which no one can document) or giant tsumamis to global ices ages. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Every explanation for water on the land EXCEPT a flood. But a global flood is the only account for the water that's been passed along by ancient peoples. So why make up stories that NO ONE in history can document? The answer is simple; because scientists are in the business of making up fairy tales and fairy tales of course can't have been observed or documented by anyone in history. But I can tell you one thing; if the bible had said there was a global ice age, scientists would dismiss it as claptrap and try to play God themselves by presenting their own version of what happened before there were witnesses. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Ocean levels change. That is not the same thing as a flood by a long shot, since it takes hundreds if not thousands of years. You see, fresh water gets locked up as ice in the Northern and Southern hemispheres, lowering sea levels. When that slowly melts, sea levels rise again. There were indeed very, very large floods over much of Western North America, but, again, not global. Sedimentary rock from around the world is not uniform, it is made of locally eroded material.
How do you know? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! How do you know what happened before there were witnesses? You can't. So once again, leaping to a conclusion based on an observation is no more scientific than looking at a forest and claiming that's evidence that the earth was once covered in trees. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! So claiming there were giant tsunamis and just recently some guy with letters after his name just claimed that there was once a giant hurricane that came all the way up from the Gulf of Mexico to Montana to try to explain the mass of bones they found in a basin. They could have come from ANYTHING. The number of fairy tales that scientists have come up with to try to deny the bible are as numerous as the images one can envision in his mind about what happened before there were witnesses. But once again, scientists count on the fact that they can use the letters after their names to dupe the public. And that, they can.
You do not understand even the rudiments of science. Sedimentary rock exists in layers at the present time, and can be studied to determine origins and age. There are layers of ice in greenland that date back to 400,000 years ago. There is air, pollen, and volcanic ash trapped in those layers that can be studied to establish the climate of the past.
Sorry but all sediment comes from water. So scientists have to determine how water created the sediment; There are only these options; a global flood; a global ice age (which would mean that water absolutely covered the whole earth except that it was frozen), a giant tsunami or several giant tsunami's or a giant hurricane or several giant hurricanes, none of which they can prove except a flood because only a flood has been recounted by hundreds of cultures. So all the theories of scientists to explain the sedimentary rock layers are nothing but SPECULATION. So scientists have a choice; they can use the giant tsunami routine, the giant hurricane, the global ice age or 2, 3, 4 giant tsunami's or hurricanes, or 1,2, or 3 ice ages,etc. And how do they determine which of those is correct? the answer is simple; by a vote and the majority wins. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! So if 50 scientists vote for an ice age and 44 vote for 2 giant tsunami's and 6 vote for several giant hurricanes, the ice age wins. Sorry but the past can't be determined by a vote because it already happened. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Just curious, how do you get t that number? Are you looking at unique cultures, are you assuming that Sumerians, Babylonians, Jews, Ugarits, Kadesh, Assyrians, Hittites, etc. are all "different" ancient cultures? I mean, suppose I were to ask every American to tell me a story about a great white whale. Some might have no idea what story to tell, but I'd bet at least 10 million would give me some variation of Moby Dick. Many of the details will vary because so few people remember Mody Dick precisely, if they ever read it themselves at all. That said, most of the 10 million I heard would be variations ona single source story that passed down to them. Were I to conclude from the immense number (10 million) that a giant white whale once existed and harrangued some poor peg-legged sea captain, I'd be in error. You are essentially arguing that, yes, there is a common source, and the common source is "truth"... but the common source you think you are seeing could itself be a fictional account that was popular enough that it hung on in some form for millennia. That said, if you have a list of the 200 cultures I'd be interested to see it. I can think of many cultures that believe that water existed before the world was created (as the Bible suggests too), but even that I see as more likely coincidence based on common psychology, than proof that water existed before the world did.
You seem to be confusing a few things here. Scientists don't give a hoot about God. The "job" of science is not to prove or disprove God (or Gods, or pasta creatures or whatever you believe in). Geologists look at sedimentary rocks to determine past environments. Sedimentary rocks do not necessarily need water - sand dune get preserved and are transported by wind. The original material could have been igneous, metamorphic or sedimentary. The rocks and the structure they contain tell us how that sedimentary rock was formed - even the climate at the time, including things like wind direction (in the case of aolian sand dunes), prevailing current directions (in the case of fluvial sediments). All creationists are delusional - if you actually studied the rock record with an open mind you would come to the same conclusions as the millions of geologists. This is not because science is "right", but because that's what the evidence says! Here's some examples of sediment structures that tell us something about palaeoenvironments: http://www.geologyrocks.co.uk/images/dessication_cracks The above shows dessication cracks - formed when a lake dried up. They look identical to modern dessication cracks: http://www.geologyrocks.co.uk/images/modern_dissication_cracks http://www.geologyrocks.co.uk/images/pebble_conglomerate The imbrication (stacking) of pebbles here gives us the current direction of the "wadi" that caused this deposit http://www.geologyrocks.co.uk/images/cross_beds_with_topsets_foresets_and_downlap These small dunes (about a metre high) were formed in a river system (there are no slip faces at the foreset of the dune face which you would see in an aolian setting). From the angle of the cross beds you can get a prevailing current direction. Further up this same sequence you see trough cross bedding, which is preserved in 3 dimensions. This gives a different current direction (though in the same general direction). Further up still, we get a great river channel cutting through the lot, in a third direction. Essentially, we have a meandering river system. Unfortunately, I suspect "faith" will blind you to this evidence and you will simply decry it as "false" or bend it to fit your view of the world...all other creationists I've met do this and not one will go out in to the field with me to actually look at rocks...strange...
I doubt it was entirely created fiction, just very distorted while be handed down orally for a few thousands of generations. I think that most people with distant origins around the Mediterranean Sea have this legend of a "great flood" as there really was one (in much of the world region now called the shores of the Mediterranean sea.) at the end of the last ice age. See post 7 for more details.
It's true that sedimentary rock comes from the action of erosion, mostly from water, but that is not a mystery, it can be any water... rain, streams, rivers, ice, snow, fog... you know, the typical action of ordinary weather...
That is meaningless, and to the extent that it has meaning is false. That exact assertion comes up in so many creationist screeds that the source must be a commonly available work of some kind. Anyone know what it is ? btw: One thing creationists who wander unto forums like this one and embarrass themselves never seem to do, or at least one never hears of it, is go back to the people who sent them out into the wide world with what amounts to an intellectual "kick me" sign taped to their ass, and ask them why they did that. Those people do not have the wellbeing of their young charges at heart. Wind, earthquake, temperature extremes, biological activities, and (very common) volcanic explosion, also produce little pieces of mineral stuff that can be compacted into sedimentary rock in various ways.
“ Here's Wikipedia's definition of sediment: "Sediment is any particulate matter that can be transported by fluid flow and which eventually is deposited as a layer of solid particles on the bed or bottom of a body of water or other liquid." So it appears that your statement is the one that's false. No wonder scientists make false assumptions about the past. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
The quality of Sciforums trolls seems to be slipping lately. To those who have posted factual counter arguments to this latest one, you have my respect. And those sort of posts are a big part of what makes this forum worth reading. That trolls bring you out to counter their BS means they aren't entirely worthless.
Speak for yourself please. I'm pretty sure Aristotle, Galileo, and Newton gave "a hoot" about God...Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
