The Holocaust never happened Subjective/Objective Views on History

You're still a Nazi. You are making excuses for them. You are dismissing firsthand reports from holocaust survivors.

The Japanese were treated civily, although I agree it was wrong to detain them at all. The warsaw ghetto was a different story of deliberate extermination.

It's a fact. The Jews were totally neglected.

No, if they were deported, it was only to concentration camps in the east.

You do know that the Nazis weren't exactly proud of their plan? They didn't want it to be well known, therefore relevent documents tended to be destroyed, and the final solution was only referred to obliquely?

How convenient for them, could they have destroyed such things deliberately? Why would they do that, after all, the world would have cheered them on, right? Actually, there are documents that you choose to ignore.

Hagar,
I agree that focussing only on the tragedy of the Jewish people in the holocaust is wrong, but perhaps there were other motivations for emphasizing the suffering of non-Jews, as they were overall the most numerous victims.

 

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I think it is fair to say that one thing that the Jews and the Nazis could agree upon after 1933 was that they were at war with one another. I think it reasonable to believe that the lengths each side were willing to go to destroy the other probably grew over a period of time.

In 1940, Himmler wrote in regard of Poland: "I hope completely to erase the concept of Jews through the possibility of a great emigration of all Jews to a colony in Africa or elsewhere". This was the best policy "if one rejects the Bolshevik method of physical extermination . . . as un-German and impossible."

(One can compare this with the words of George Washington. "They work more effectively against us than the enemy's armies. They are a hundred times more dangerous to our liberties and the great cause we are engaged in. It is much to be lamented that each state, long ago, has not hunted them down as pest to society and the greatest enemies we have to the happiness of America." It is a matter of contention whether Washington intended the "They" to refer to Jewish currency speculators or to Jews in general.)

In 1941, the Jew Theodore Kaufmann published (in New York) his book "Germany Must Perish", advocating the extinction of the German race though sterilization.

One should not forget that the German concentration camps served not only to keep enemies of the state in safe confinement but also as sources of labour, of which Germany -- with so many of its men enrolled in the armed forces -- was desperately short. (Apologists for the Nazis have no difficulty digging out instructions from the Nazi hierarchy instructing concentration camp commanders to look after the health of their inmates.) However, with the passage of time, those whose value as workers ceased through infirmity and disease were increasingly regarded as expendable.

In 1944, the Jew Henry Morgenthau (US Secretary of the Treasury) thrust upon Roosevelt and Churchill his "Morgenthau Plan" of revenge through starvation and enslavement. German industry would be dismantled leaving the population without the means to export and thereby earn the foreign currency required to import food. German slave labour would rebuild the nations they had attacked. (Most Americans and British were appalled, leading to the hasty backtracking of their leaders.)

In the latter stages of the war as food grew scarce, concentration camp prisoners became progressively more expendable, culminating in a policy of active liquidation of Jews, gypsies and others. At the war's end, Jews were among the most active in wreaking revenge upon their defeated enemy. Between two and three million Germans are reckoned to have perished at the hands of Partisans and their followers after the official end of the war.

 

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Thank you for that intelligent summary, River Ape, but I wonder, why were all Jews considered an enemy, when only a few intellectuals offered any opposition to the facist state?

 

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spidergoat:

Tiresome and unsupported accusation, which blatantly displays that you don't know what a Nazi IS.

Once again...

1. I'm not a national socialist.

2. I'm not German.

3. I'm half Slav.

Funny how anyone who dares diminish the Holocaust is accused of being 'anti-semite' or a 'Nazi', despite the fact that there are Jews and Slavs who deny that the gassings occurred.

So if I were to say that the Palestinian terrorists are being oppressed by the Israelis, and hence being driven to commit acts of terror, I'm a Palestinian terrorist? After all, I'm 'making excuses for them'.

Quite simply, your logic is, as always, fallicious.

Oh? So you can find victims of the gas chambers who are willing to testify that they were gassed? Interesting.

You're ignoring first hand reports from holocaust survivors that they saw NO gas chambers while staying in Nazi Concentration Camps. But hey, being your typical selective self, you'll choose to ignore their testimony.

By the way, do you believe that Elvis still lives? There are plenty of individuals who claim that they have seen Elvis!

AHAHAHAHAHA! Sure they were, sure they were. Americans are angels on Earth. They'd never dare detain and torture civilians. Only the Nazis and Arabs do such things!

When you're detained merely because you are 'insert your race here', then you might change your definition of 'civil'.

Can you support the above conjecture? Sabre-rattling and saying 'because I said so!' aren't that convincing.

Burden. Proof. You.
Also, explain how a shattered Germany, who had been subjected to saturation bombings for months of end, could adequately feed prisoners. The Nazis couldn't even feed their own soldiers in 1945!!!

Wrong again! Hitler deported the Jews to lands outside Germany, including the U.S and Palestine. In fact, the Zionists collaborated with Hitler at one point, since they had a similiar goal... settling Jews on Palestine. I'll gladly provide sources later. I'm on a library computer at the moment. The damn copy/paste function doesn't work, and it's quite slow.

So LACK of evidence is evidence? Wow, if I'm ever on trial for a crime, I sure as hell hope you aren't on the grand jury!

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Your above statement is a classic copout. You mean to tell me that EVERY official document and plan regarding the gassing of the Jews was destroyed as soon as it was received by Hitler's henchmen? Can support that conjecture?

Interesting how you claim that the Germans were clever enough to destroy every official document. Yet they were somehow stupid enough to let people they had gassed survive...

 

This is a ridiculous topic. What next, are we going to debate whether the earth is flat?

 

I do not think it a gross exaggeration to say that all Jews were an enemy. This too was a progressive development; polarisation took place over a period of years.

Remember the Balfour Declaration. The Lloyd George government gave their support for a Jewish Homeland in Palestine in return for . . . well, what precisely?

In 1916, Britain was in desperate need of American help. Recalling the situation twenty years later, Samuel Landman, Secretary of the Zionist Council of the United Kingdom, wrote that the only way to get American to enter the war had been "to enlist and mobilize the hitherto unsuspectedly powerful forces of Zionist Jews in America and elsewhere in favour of the Allies on a quid pro quo contract basis . . . The Balfour Declaration of 1917 was but the public confirmation of a necessarily secret 'gentleman's' agreement of 1916."

The Jews (or at any rate the Zionists) made themselves the enemy of Germany in 1916. The role played by the Jews in Germany in undermining the war effort and morale in WWI is too complex a subject to be addressed in a sentence of two -- but one should realise that German nationalists like Hitler had real grievances against the Jews.

The so-called "Wiemar Republic" began and ended amid violence by both right and left. Initially, the Jews were not exclusively of the left: that was not the place for the wealthy among them! But Soviet Bolshevism was a largely Jewish creation, and it was the extreme left (often with strong Soviet ties) that became the domain of Jewish political activists in Germany. In the bloody street-fighting of the period Jews were prominent, both in handing out punishment and taking it. The "intellectuals" were not the ones the Nazis were chiefly concerned about! By degrees, Jewish racial solidarity made all Jews enemies of the new National Socialist state of which they were to become a part.

 

James R:

Oh goodie. Official orders from Hitler? Official plans on the logistics of gasing 6 million Jews?

Typical nonsense from someone who wants to stifle all independant inquiry and thought.

How did you get 6 million? I asked spurious to explain the methodology, but he crapped out. Perhaps you might like a try? Start by providing evidence that there were even 6 million European Jews in German occupied lands.

1. Ever heard of emigration?

2. 'Dying during the war' isn't the same as 'getting gassed by a Nazi'. You ignore disease, famine, and being shot during combat, just to name a few other possibilities which you neglect to even consider. Your belief that every 'missing' Jew was killed by a Nazi clearly highlights your bias. Conjecture such as yours is unsupported BS.

You are aware that not all the European Jews were innocent, German loving citizens? There WERE resistance fighters and insurgencies. The Zionists declared war on Nazi Germany when they realized that dealing with Hitler was too high a price to pay.

Naughty Germans for locking potential threats up in a concentration camp. It's not like the British stuck women and children in Concentration Camps during the Boer War, right? The Americans never placed civilians of Japanese descent in Concentration Camps either, huh? Oh, and all of the prisoners in Abu Gharib are/were combatants!!!

Hey, George Bush and other members of his little gang aren't to blame for Abu Gharib, since we can't find any OFFICIAL DOCUMENTATION which demonstrates that they ordered the torture of Iraqi civilians. ZOUNDS! Then why do the ignorant shits who say this then turn around and condemn Hitler for ordering the gassing of the Jews, if they can't find one shred of official documentation saying so?

It's amazing how people like you sneer at us 'revisionists'. We only wish to 'revise' one exaggerated event touted in many Western history books. You seem to want to revise/ignore all the events in history which shatter your preconceived notions and biases. In otherwords, you wish to revise/ignore a hell of a lot.

 

As it happens there is a very interesting current topic on the earth being flat on the General Philosophy forum.

No topic is ridiculous if it gets debate.

 

You crapped out yourself. You claimed there wasn't any decent literature on the topic of holocaust statistics. I claimed that there is after checking that there actually is.

The only conclusion we can make is that you are not interested in a proper discussion, but merely want to express opinionated racist statements to shock other people.

 

For one thing, the Jews were not a real enemy of the German state, they were participants, and would have remained so indefinately if not for the rise of anti-semitism, restrictions on their movements, closing of their businesses, etc. I don't doubt that there were a few that opposed Nazi policies openly and for good reason. The Jews were scapegoats, and part of a larger program of racial purification ideology that included the murder of other ethnic groups, mentally ill, homosexuals, and gypsies.

The Ghetto Slaughters in Stolin, Rubel, and David-Horodok through the eyes of a survivor
...In 1941, about the 16th of Av (it was a Sunday as far as I remember), there took place the gruesome pogrom in David-Horodok. With the excuse that labor battalions were being formed, all men, including children the age of twelve, were gathered, beaten and driven out of the city. They were shot and many were buried alive...
...About five in the afternoon, I heard the shooting of guns, one after the other. My heart felt that something is wrong. My heart was pounding harder and harder. I hid myself deep in the bushes and waited until someone approached from the village.

...The first bearer of the bitter news was Marko (you remember him). As soon as he spotted me he started waving to me that I should go back. With tears in his eyes, he told me that every Jewish man in the village was shot and all boys 16 and older...

...They were gathered near the church. They - the S.S. and local collaborators, put them in a small building which was part of the fire department. They tied their hands behind them and took them out in rows of three, clubbed them, led them to the barns and shot them. Between them were fathers holding their children by the hand. Three bullets hit Jacob before he hit the ground. Remember dear brother how strong he was? ...

...The women believed deep in their hearts that this was all an illusion. They wanted to believe that God wouldn't do such a thing. I knew the men would never come back. But I didn't want to spoil their wive's little bit of hopeless hope. They were murdered by the S.S. stationed in Luniniec with help from the local residents of David-Horodok. From Luniniec they came to Lachina, David-Horokok. That was on a Sunday. With the excuse that there are damaged roads and a bridge to be fixed, all men 16 and older had to be gathered in one place called the Grebli, near the bridge of the River Horin.

There were about 2,700 of them. They marched them 10 or 12 kilometres from the city, put them in rows and machine-gunned them one row after the other. They told the poor victims to get undressed for inspection in case somebody had a weapon. Many were only wounded. Just the same, they put them in the graves, one row on the top of the other. The ground was trembling and shaking. The people were still alive in the graves and tried to get out. No one got out alive. The fresh, warm blood flowing and the dead bodies pressing on them - vanished in agony...
http://www.holocaust-history.org/short-essays/michael-nosanchuk.shtml

 

Typists at a Japanese Internment Camp:

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Warsaw Ghetto: Homeless Children

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It's time you started educating yourself at least a little bit. You make yourself look like...

 

spurious:

Wrong again, spurious! But don't worry, I've grown accustomed to your habit of being downright wrong about basic historical facts.

Excellent. You claimed. Once again, your word is worth jackshit in my eyes. Until you actually put forward the methodology used, and justify why it should be accepted as 'fact', you've established nothing.

Typical liberal tactic. When you can't produce a shred of evidence to support your stance, cry 'racist' or 'anti-semite'!

spidergoat:

Wrong again.

Ahh, but all of that is irrelevant. The fact remains that the Jews were carrying out insurgent attacks against both German military and civilian targets. The Germans responded by placing suspect Jews into concentration camps, much like the Americans did in Abu Gharib.

http://www.zundelsite.org/english/harwood/Didsix02.html

Oh wait, I guess in Holocaust brainwashed dumbfuck land, those European Jews in Yugoslavia didn't exist, nor did they carry out 'insurgent' (or should I say TERRORIST?) attacks on the Axis. Because if they did, then that gives Germany justification for locking up shifty looking Jewish citizens, much like the Americans and British have done in the past, done at that time, and continue to do today!

Oh look, after having both of his 'documents' soundly refuted, spidergoat falls back on eye-witness testimony. After all, we all know how reliable eye-witness testimony is! Why, I could run to Google and type in 'Jews who deny Holocaust' and get quite a few entries of Jews who denied that mass killings ever took place.

Once again, spidergoat. DO YOU HAVE ANY OFFICIAL DOCUMENTATION?!

Oh look, selective cut and pasting to prove his points.

However, he ignores that:

1. Abuse did occur towards Japanese-American citizens in American concentration camps. Why, I could Google up accounts of torture and abuse, if asked to do so. Of course, I will not be, because spidergoat knows that he will be embarassed.

2. The situation in Germany was far more desperate than in America. In America, they could afford to keep their citizens well fed. In 1945, Germany was crumbled, and had suffered from saturation bombing. Trying to compare the conditions in German concentration camps, and then in American concentration camps, is fallicious, since the surrounding circumstances were not parallel.

James R:

Then you shouldn't have much trouble producing them, should you? I'm sure if there were official orders from Hitler to mass murder the Jews, you would have produced them by now.

God forbid enlarging a Concentration Camp so that you can fit more prisoners in. I guess if the Germans hadn't enlarged the Concentration Camps, you'd be bitching about how they refused to give the prisoners any space.

Source?

Ahh, so you're accusing me of lying. May I ask where you have obtained this magnificent power to read minds?

Yes, you do have QUITE an imagination, James R!

I don't know. I don't have to explain anything, since I'm the skeptic here. I never claimed that the Jews 'voluntarily resettled'. I merely provided it as an alternative explaination to 'they were all gassed!'.

Explain why my alternative explainations are inferior to your 'genocide' drivel? Both are unsupported at the moment (although I would gladly gather documentation, if necessary), so why is your explanation more credible than mine?

It's quite obvious that you believe that the 6 million died as a result of intentional genocide. Stop goofing around. Produce some documentation, or STFU.

The 'locking up' in ghetto's occurred after the Jews started their insurgency movements. It's also nice to note that you do admit that the Jews were attacking the Germans + Axis forces/collaborators. You merely lend more credibility to my argument that the Germans were justified in locking suspect Jews up in concentration camps, and further diminish your credibility.

Obviously they can be, since Israel shoots Arab children and women. And the Americans locked up women and children in Abu Gharib and in their little Japanese concentration camps during WWII. Oops, you're caught with you pants down again! Funny how you assume that children and women can't carry out acts of terror and insurgency. Silly James R, stop playing with your Play Dough and watch the News sometime.

Nothing at all. Once again, you have missed the Clue Train. People love to belly-ache about how the Germans locked the Jews up in concentration camps. However, they fail to realize that BACK IN THAT TIME, in that context, it was nothing extra-ordinary. Hell, Western countries still lock up suspect civilians in concentration camps today. Abu Gharib, for example. Or the many detention centres which hold illegal immigrants fleeing from persecution.

What the Germans done back then may sound extreme today. But back then, such behaviour was far from extreme. Why then, do we choose to focus on what the Germans did? And even more importantly, why do we focus on the Jews? Hitler hated Communists and Slavs almost as much as the Jews, yet you never heard about the Poles butchered and thrown into concentration camps when the German+Russian forces marched into Poland. You also never hear about the Japanese-American citizens thrown into American concentration camps when Japan declared war on America (just like you never learn about the oil embargo imposed on Japan by America).

Then it wasn't planned genocide then, was it?

Translation: I can't produce any official documentation that Hitler ordered the gassing of the Jews, so I'm shifting the goal posts.

There you go, parroting that word 'evidence' again. Sadly, I have yet to see one shred of evidence from you.

There are numerous eye-witnesses who claim that they have seen the ghost of Elvis. There are numerous Jewish 'eye-witnesses' who deny that mass murder occured in the Nazi Concentration camps.
There were plenty of witnesses who claimed that the Nazis turned dead Jews into soap, until that fairy tale was debunked decades later.

Quite simply, eye-witness testimony is highly unreliable, as any lawyer will tell you. Especially when it is extracted under torture (testimony from the Nazis), or when it comes from Zionists, who need more global sympathy to be given a 'homeland'.

Which you have failed to produce.

Thank you kazakhan for replying to James R on this account, and highlighting his ignorance.

However, the following really demonstrates why James R needs to 'hit the books' (and I don't mean that literally, James!)

http://www.zundelsite.org/english/harwood/Didsix02.html

I'm only nasty to you because you're so stupid. I'll be nicer when you're smarter. Do you believe that that's a fair deal?

You accuse me of stereo-typing, and then label me a neo-Nazi?! I don't doubt that the hypocrisy and irony would be lost on an assclown such as yourself, but I find it quite amusing.

 

When? After they were forced to close their businesses and wear stars on their clothes?

I disagree that the documents I quoted were "soundly refuted". Why aren't eye-witness accounts valid? Especially when they all corroborate the same story?

Want more evidence? I gave you a website full of evidence, do you need to be spoonfed?
http://www.holocaust-history.org/

 

I don't want to establish anything. You cried like a little baby that there is no literature on this matter. I checked that there is. So stop crying and start doing some research. I'm not interested in the particulars of this topic. But you are. So you do something about. Or are you a child that needs pampering? Do i need to spoon feed you? Can't you use a search engine? poor you.

 

mountainhare
Are you denying that the gas chambers at Auschwitz that are still physically there never existed?
It can be noted that not all concentration camps had gas chambers; some were more work camps than immediate termination camps.
The 6 million has always been an estimate of Jews who perished during the war years based on census and emigration figures not an exact head count of how many were gassed. The precise number will always be questionable.

 

Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler, the second most powerful man in Nazi Germany, speaks to SS officers for three hours in a secret meeting.

Himmler's recording survived the war. It is now in the National Archives in College Park, Maryland.
------------------------------------------------

I also want to mention a very difficult subject before you here, completely openly.

It should be discussed amongst us, and yet, nevertheless, we will never speak about it in public.

Just as we did not hesitate on June 30 to carry out our duty, as ordered, and stand comrades who had failed against the wall and shoot them.

About which we have never spoken, and never will speak.

That was, thank God, a kind of tact natural to us, a foregone conclusion of that tact, that we have never conversed about it amongst ourselves, never spoken about it, everyone shuddered, and everyone was clear that the next time, he would do the same thing again, if it were commanded and necessary.

I am talking about the "Jewish evacuation": the extermination of the Jewish people.
It is one of those things that is easily said. "The Jewish people is being exterminated," every Party member will tell you, "perfectly clear, it's part of our plans, we're eliminating the Jews, exterminating them, ha!, a small matter."

And then along they all come, all the 80 million upright Germans, and each one has his decent Jew. They say: all the others are swine, but here is a first-class Jew.

And none of them has seen it, has endured it. Most of you will know what it means when 100 bodies lie together, when there are 500, or when there are 1000. And to have seen this through, and -- with the exception of human weaknesses -- to have remained decent, has made us hard and is a page of glory never mentioned and never to be mentioned.

Because we know how difficult things would be, if today in every city during the bomb attacks, the burdens of war and the privations, we still had Jews as secret saboteurs, agitators and instigators. We would probably be at the same stage as 1916-17, if the Jews still resided in the body of the German people.

We have taken away the riches that they had, and I have given a strict order, which Obergruppenführer Pohl has carried out, we have delivered these riches completely to the Reich, to the State. We have taken nothing from them for ourselves. A few, who have offended against this, will be [judged] in accordance with an order, that I gave at the beginning: He who takes even one Mark of this is a dead man.

A number of SS men have offended against this order. There are not very many, and they will be dead men - WITHOUT MERCY! We have the moral right, we had the duty to our people to do it, to kill this people who wanted to kill us. But we do not have the right to enrich ourselves with even one fur, with one Mark, with one cigarette, with one watch, with anything. That we do not have. Because at the end of this, we don't want, because we exterminated the bacillus, to become sick and die from the same bacillus.

I will never see it happen, that even one bit of putrefaction comes in contact with us, or takes root in us. On the contrary, where it might try to take root, we will burn it out together. But altogether we can say: We have carried out this most difficult task for the love of our people. And we have taken on no defect within us, in our soul, or in our character.

 

Well, just where that 6 million figure came from is really a bit of a mystery!

Estimates of the world Jewish population have always been rather varied. I believe the famous declaration of war on Germany by world Jewry in 1933 was made in the name of 14 million Jews, and that is the figure used in kazakhan's Daily Express extract. We may presume that the figure for 1939 was not far different. Early postwar estimates tend to be around 12 million.

There is a Wikipedia article ("Jew") that uses the postwar figure of 12 million, but states "Prior to World War II the world population of Jews was approximately 18 million." One cannot help but suspect that the 18 million figure was arrived at by adding the famous 6 million figure to the post-war tally. I am not sure it can be found in reference works of the time.

The Yad Vashem holocaust museum has amassed a database of about three million names. It is impossible to believe that a similar number of victims vanished quite without trace of their former existence. There might be, perhaps, 100,000 unrecorded names, but it is entirely likely that the database includes a higher number of people who simply died of natural causes (or, indeed, on active service) during the wartime period.

Three million seems a reasonable estimate -- a figure as likely to be an overestimate as an underestimate. I agree with candy, the exact figure will never be established.