I have recently been watching this BBC documentary about Muslim Spain. It's very interesting: http://www.islamicvideos.net/component/option,com_mtree/task,viewlink/link_id,243/Itemid,30/
Americans are the masters of murder, man, anyone can see that Syria is civlized like Greece or italy or Saudi. and that is the stupidst post ever. Do you not think israelis would say 'murder every arab'? they sure are 'civilized' and yet they dont even have a homeland, how sad
by conquest, it was promised to the sons of Jacob, known as Israel, a name given to him by God Himself really, & all the time most muslims say that islam is the religion of peace, even Bush says that, are you making President Bush a liar? I say, therefore you can not be a real muslim, you must be a jewish impostor, trying to incite racial hatred against the peace-loving muslims, have you no shame, imposter, son of a dog. and if you are a real muslim, I disinherit you from the sons of the quran as told by a Syrian? do you have a DNA test to prove that? or are you trying to steal Phoenician history too? now, that area had several centers of power, by diverse people; Egyptians were black, look at their art, they wwere a black people that spoke a hamitic language, look that up, Mr. History major heres a little lessons, if you can read Aramaeans- http://www.topix.net/world/iran/200...aramaeans-the-bible-christianity-and-the-west Assyrians- http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/MESO/ASSYRIA.HTM Babylonians- http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/cultural/oldworld/middle_east/babylonians.html Carthage- http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761557005/Carthage_(ancient_city).html Chaldeans- http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/MESO/CHALDEAN.HTM Ebla- http://history-world.org/ebla.htm Hittites- http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/MESO/HITTITES.HTM Israel- http://www.fordham.edu/Halsall/ancient/asbook06.html Medes- http://www.art-arena.com/medes.html Persians- http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/MESO/PERSIANS.HTM Philistines- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistines Phoenicians- http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/aegean/theculturesofgreece/phoenician.html Samaritans- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritan Sumerians - http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/MESO/SUMER.HTM know your history, if you really are a Syrian
middle east is the REGION that they belong, even if not arabian By conquest, it is ours, then let it be Jews kill arabs, we kill them. I am a moslim, but I defend my race more than anything else. Arabs are the master race. and have you not heard of Jihad? We are about peace, but when you have to defend yourself then you just have to
nah, ah sucks, we're just babies at it, we have so much to learn from people like you, experts for thousands of years, it must be second nature syria is a dictatorship, run by a minority of Alawites in power, they kill any sunni that wants a fair democratic society, just say something wrong, neck cut. btw, don't if you want to live really? and you are an expert in "stupidity", to be able to say that?
you mean now, it was a collection of warring states, until islam choked out all the other religions, that is the only connection now, its past history, which I am sure Iran would now like to control now (because there are still ethnicities buried there, beneath the surface) so if we conquer it, its ours, right? isn't that how it works? good for you, so does that mean that if a muslim kills one of mine, I have to kill more muslims to make it even? really? and you have proof? sounds like nazis, didn't they lose? yeah, so? but with the proviso, only under muslim control ok, I'll agree with you, from now on, if any one kills 1 American, then 1,000, 000 of those that did it, must die, do you agree its fair or do you have other suggestions?
you have to muddle through a BBC islamkissfest to find it when trying to find out about muslim spain read the sources, muslim, jew christian from there, they wrote well & voluminous not biased sources, (Britain & the Netherlands then, nor muslim now) these countries were at war for their very survival against Spain (remember the Spanish Armada anyone, remember the expulsion of the jews many went to the Netherlands)?), they had 7 things to prove then & had the means & motive (printing press helped & literate jews too); 1) anti-catholic 2) anti-Spanish 3) better empire builders 4) better treasure thieves 5) better discoverers 6) better sailors 7) better propagandists
All this talk of Israel and Palestine reminds me, I was just reading parts of Bloodline of the Holy Grail by Laurence Gardner. On Page 28 he mentions Palestine being divided into three provinces: Galilee, Judea, and Samaria. Then says that Herod was an Arab usurper, that he had converted to Judaism but was not of Davidic succession. 'In practise, Herod's authority was confined to Galilee. Judea was actually governed by the Roman procurator at Caesaria. Between the two of them, the regime was harsh in the extreme, and more than 3,000 summary crucifixions were carried out to coerce the population into submission. Prohibitive taxes were levied, torture was commonplace, and the Jewish suicide rate lept alarmingly. This was the brutal environment into which Jesus was born.
4 things wrong; 1) author is not creditable 2) basic idea is wrong 3) Herod was an Ideuminite 4) his people were forcably converted to Judaism by the Maccabees about 1 or 2 hundred years prior the Herodic dynasty was friends of Rome, they got appointed to several diff posts, the first was called Herod the Great read these if you are interested: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herod_the_Great http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9040194/Herod-Antipas http://www.aish.com/literacy/jewish...Jewish_History_Part_31_-_Herod3_the_Great.asp
Al-Mansur It is natural to want to defend your people. As an American I sometimes wonder how to react to attack. Do we say that we deserved it and surrender to the attackers or do we counterattack. If we do not counterattack is that not tantamount to surrender? Or would not counterattacking be a sort of strategy? It seems that the killing of Muslims by Jews and Jews by Muslims has been going on since the end of the 19th century, in a more contemporary sense at least. However where it began I don't know. One website on the city of Hebron claims that the Jews of that city were wiped out in the 1920s. Then, of course, as a little research later reveals, gangs of Jews went about killing Palestinians (actually at the time they were Palestinians themselves, were they not?.....Palestinian Jews). Aren't Arabs supposed to be descended from Ismail and wasn't Ishmail a son of Abraham? Aren't all Jews and Arabs sons of Abraham. Is that what he would have wanted, to see his sons kill each other? Perhaps it's time that Israelis see the Palestinians as their Arabs and the Palestinians see the Israelis as their Jews.... a headache? Yes. a heartache? Yes, but brothers.
Moorish Music The Moorish influence on the music of Spain is an interesting and controversial one. Musicologists believe that while there must have been some degree of influence it is hard to document as almost none of the music played by Moorish musicians was put to pen, an odd thing since they invented the system of tablature that was to become prevalent in Europe during the Renaissance. The reason they didn't use their own system of notation seems to stem from the fact that Moorish musicians usually passed their music down from generation to generation. In other words it was transmitted directly from one generation of musician to the next....as it was in Europe. However, in Europe a growing middle class began to take an interest in music as a hobby and wanted to learn how to play instruments. Tablature was one way to augment what a music teacher could do for his students. Various schools of music in North Africa today are thought to have been started by Hispano-Arab musicians who came to various cities in Morocco and Algeria as the Moorish cities in Spain fell, one by one, to the conquering armies of the Christians. Although musicologists would challenge any Arabist to produce proof of Moorish influence in Spanish music, Groves Dictionary of Music does note similarities in style and acknowledges a probability as far as Moorish influence is concerned, at least in the South. And then you have the music of the Sephardic Jews, in whose repertoire some think may be preserved Moorish tunes and songs. In the Palace Songbook there are also songs referring to the Moors such as the Romance de Abindarraez. One version of this song is about two Moorish girls, Fatima and Jarifa, who are looking down on the plains of Granada, and at their favourite knight, Abindarraez. All the Moorish knights are richly adorned in robes of silk and gold embroidery, made for them by their Moorish ladies. The two damsels Fatima and Jarifa, who used to be friends, were no longer talking to one another, their former friendship fractured by jealousy. Another version of the song begins with the Moors preparing for jousting on the morning of the Feast of St John and ends with a beleagered soldier coming in from battle at Antequera where his Moors were badly beaten. 'I have seven lance wounds, and I am among the better off of my comrades,' he says. 'I escaped with my soldiers to Archidona,' he continues. At this the king orders the call to arms and his men gather. At Alcala la Real (Royal Gate of Alacala), the Christians and Moors engage in battle. The Christians, although great in number, are in disarray. The Moors, who are well-versed in the art of war, deliver a crushing blow to the Christian forces laying ambush to them as they try to advance. With this victory the Moors return in high spirits shouting 'Victory is ours!' And so we have a culture that is gone and yet in some ways still there in Spain. And of course there is Morocco and Algeria were you have the decendants of many Moors living to this day. In recent years many Spainish musicians have worked together with North African musicians to try and recreate the music of Moorish Spain. Although some considerable speculation is inevitably involved, one ingredient is the same, Christian and Mulsim musicians playing together in a highly improvised style.
This is very interesting, Al Mansur. Can you provide us with examples of the kind of music you are referring to? Any links where we can listen to Moorish Spanish music. It's a shame alot of Spanish do not embrace their Moorish North African heritage, which was large part of their history.
Hi DiamondHearts, I would recommend firstly a CD entitled 'Canciones y Danzas de Espana, Musica en la epoca de Cervantes, Music in the Time of Cervantes by Hesperion XX for the song whose lyrics I have described and others. The CD opens with Danzas y Romances para Moros y Moras (Moorish Dances & Ballads). This has some intriguing music: La perra mora (The Moorish Bitch) not a very polite title and it is an instrumental here. However the lyrics are given in part and the title is perhaps forgiven as the song is about a man who is in love with a Moorish lady (?) who is most cruel to him, hence the epithet. Here you have an archaic sounding Renaissance tune played on viols but with the light accompaniment of goblet (conga sized) drums. The drums are associated with Medieval and Renaissance music and North African music. Then comes the ballad of Abindarraez and his two jealous lovers. The fifth track is Tres morillas me enamoran (I have fallen for three Moorish Girls). It is an instrumental version played with viols and recorder. It is a lovely piece played in a lyrical style and has the feel of cool jazz, at least to me. Not all the pieces on this CD are exciting to listen to but if you want to find out more about this repertoire, it is a good place to start. The CD is perhaps the second by Hesperion XX, a group out of Barcelona headed by Jordi Savall. They are dominant in early music (music before 1750), especially Spanish music. There are a few expressive pieces such as the jacaras, a swaggering dance accompanied by castanette and vihuela (a precursor of the guitar) or guitar. I recall seeing somewhere on the web that the name jacaras is of Arabic origin and means something like talking back. This could be true as it was street music, prevalent in la hampa or underworld, a place where one would expect to hear plenty of people talking back to authority. This is quite a beautifully played piece and one wonders how so much sound can come from one guitar. Another CD I would recommend is by the Atrium Musicae de Madrid and is entitled Musique Arabo-Andalouse on Harmonia Mundi France. They play classic North African/Moroccan music on Medieval instruments and do a fine job of it I might add. Another fine and intriguing CD is by Rondinella 'Songs of the Sephardim' on the Dorian label. The Sephardim were the Jews of Spain. Another CD featuring some Sephardic songs is Tres Cuerpos, una alma (Three Bodies, One Soul) by Pedro Aledo and his group on France Telecom or al Sun. Aledo is a fine singer with a meliflous voice and his style is full of refernces to Moorish Spain. He plays Castillian 13th century canticles (cantigas), which were composed in Galician dialect (the dialect popular at the time for songs and poetry), sung poems of Ibn el Arabi, and five Sephardic songs. Finally I would like to mention 'Musique Arabo-Andalouse du Maroc, Arabo-Andalusian Misic of Marocco, Gharnati with Amina Alaui, Ahmned Piro and his orchestra. This is classic North African music as played in our times. The singer has a most meliflous voice and is my choice of singer. Radio Tarifa are a group of Spanish gypsy musicians or at least flamenco singers and musicians who play in a quasi North African style in a contemporary manner. I should add that they are very good and some of the tunes they play are indeed very old, one of them being a 16th century Sephardic tune put to pen by Diego Pisador, very, very rare. You have a title, Rajput Desert Knight. Are you from Rajput? I've never been to India but people tell me I should go. A friend mentioned his visit to the Taj Mahal and said that like the Alhambra in Spain it is a must see. Another said that he spotted a dark corner, shone a torch on it and the whole thing lit up like a sky full of stars. You talk about many Spaniards not embracing their Moorish past. In the past it was probably because of their Catholic allegiances. Now however many are beginning to embrace it. I have a friend with a surname Altable, which she considers to be of Arabic derivation. We were walking on the streets of Kowloon together and met a man from Pakistan. I told him she was descended from Muslims and he welcomed her back into the fold. Much of the music I like to listen to can be found on Amazon.com and you can often hear music clips. Just click on listen. You can simply go to google.com and click on Hesperion XX, for instance and hear clips.
Iranian Jews I was talking about Iran once with a Jewish friend, born in Israel but raised in the US. Of course Iran and the US haven't had particularly good relations since the Ayatollah's hostage taking put President Carter's career to an abrupt halt. With their hardline version of Islam one would not imagine it would be a place where Jews would want to live...particularly with some of the the recent comments by Ahmenajad (spelling?). However my friend Eretz was telling me that the Jews in Iran live in peace and do very, very well. And Eretz is about an ardent a Jew as I have ever met.
My friend Remo has a comment based on all the debate raging around the tolerance and intolerance of Moorish Spain: 'So there we have it. Muslim Spain was as diabolical as everywhere else..but had great architecture..and added a bit of tagine tinged intolerance.'
It was an imposed heritage, foreign to them, there is no doubt traces of it in the architecture and music as Al Mansur mentions.
As you mentioned earlier there were periods of tolerance and exchange during the muslim rule of spain but in the end the spaniards didn't desire islam.
gypsies helped too, if you hear them both, I think the diversion happened when guitars were developed from lutes-type instruments conquest, then imposition of a foreign culture, then 2nd class status, did not endear islam to those that did not convert, btw, I read some where that some of the Visigoth lords converted to islam so as not to lose their lands also, probably the same reason Syrians don't hype their Assyrians &/or Aramaic descent, whoever heard them boast about that? they're muslims now
I'm Punjabi, but my ancestors are from ancient Rajputana. Our family is Rajput and very proud of our heritage. Punjab (land of five rivers, tributaries of the Indus) is the cradle of Indian civilization (housing the ruins of Mohenjaro, Harrapa, andalso contains the oldest Indian city, Lahore). I recommend you visit New Delhi and Agra in India, and also come to visit Lahore, Islamabad, Peshawar in Pakistan. This is very nice to hear. I am glad some of the Spanish embrace their heritage. Whatever the religion, it is necessary to embrace your heritage and take pride in your ancestry. In Pakistan, we are Muslims but we still take pride in our ancestors, even though they were of different religions, we are still from their blood and have more claim to them than others. I have been to Iran before, it's a very beautiful and lovely country. Iranians of all religions, take great pride in their history and culture. Like of the Jews in the Arab world, most of the Persian Jews are Persians who simply happen to be Jews. I have noticed that in the Middle East, people will get along with each other regardless of religion or even nationality.
