tell that to the Chinese, the Indians, the Aztecs & the Incas http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/lostempires/china/age.html http://www.hindubooks.org/sudheer_birodkar/hindu_history/landrajnamavali.html http://www.american-indians.net/empires.htm you mean the Chinese there, that's why there is so much discrimination against them, they're too rich http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/links/doi/10.1111/1467-7660.00037/abs/ http://www.asiaweek.com/asiaweek/99/0820/cs8.html good for them, is there still poverty in Pakistan? What about their education system, is it tops? http://www.unesco.org/education/efa/know_sharing/grassroots_stories/pakistan_2.shtml http://www.yespakistan.com/education/educationinPakistan.asp
After you read the info below, you can apologize later; muslims are allowed to apologize if they make errors, right? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! http://studentwebs.coloradocollege.edu/~A_KLEIN/ah210/visigoth.htm http://gallery.sjsu.edu/IslamicTutorial/Cordoba/cordoba.html The following is from: http://www.spaintour.com/heritage.htm#mosque HISTORIC CENTRE OF CORDOBA ________________________________________ The city of Cordoba lies on the right-hand bank of the Guadalquivir. It is the former capital of El Andalus, of the emirate and caliphate of the same name and has preserved many architectural sights of its past, especially its Mosque which became a part of the World Heritage List in 1984. The beautiful Parador of La Arruzafa overlooks the second most important city in the Guadalquivir Valley. Where the Mosque stands today, there used to be a basilica consecrated to San Vicente in Visigothic times. When the Arabs conquered Cordoba in 711, the building was shared and divided into two equal parts for Muslims and Christians. This odd arrangement lasted until 784 when Abd al-Rahman I decided to build a new mosque at the site, a mosque which was finished by his son Hisham I in 790. The building was progressively enlarged, and it was Almanzor, Hisham II's favourite, who carried out the last extension by adding eight aisles to the eastern part of the building and who finished El Patio de los Naranjos (ie, of the Orange Trees), where four large ritual fountains were installed. After the reconquest of Cordoba in 1236, the mosque was consecrated to Christian worship and remained unchanged until 1384, when the chancel was enlarged by destroying arches and columns and replacing them with Gothic architecture. In 1523, part of the prayer hall was remodelled along Renaissance lines. The Mosque forms an almost perfect rectangle which measure 180m from north to south and 130m from east to west. It is surrounded by a massive enclosure which is reinforced by thick square towers with many temple door between. The main entrance, which is called "El Perdon", is 14th century Mudejar and faces north. This religious building borders on the Guadalquivir in the south, while the "Sahn" or Patio de los Naranjos lies in the north, surrounded by a high crenellated wall. The Patio is decorated with porticoes on three sides and has a tower inside, which has absorbed the original minaret, as well as fountains. Modelled on the one in Damascus, the Cordoba Mosque represents considerable architectural progress compared with its model. The most admirable feature is the way in which the builders solved the problem of the arches on which the ceiling rests. They used two superimposed arches which was an unprecedented novelty in Arab architecture. Most of the columns take advantage of earlier Roman, Early Christian and Visigothic constructions. The horse-shoe arches have wither stone or brick voussoirs and the ceilings were originally flat with wooden caissons. Inside the Mosque, the Villaviciosa Chapel is outstanding. For the first time, it has Caliphal vaults which were of great importance in later Spanish architecture. The decoration of this hall is the most sumptuous in Caliphal art, including the closely-knit tracery of the intersecting round trefoil arches, the many-coloured wall mosaics and the unique decoration of the cupola. The Mihrab or decorated niche is found in the centre area of the chapel. The great Cordoba Mosque, irreplaceable proof of the civilisation of the Caliphate of Cordoba (929-1031), harbours one of the most beautiful architectural designs ever carried out, with the 19 aisles of its hall containing a forest of columns, the curious overlapping arches and the beautiful ribbed cupola. The centre of Cordoba partly preserves the boundaries and the layout of the Muslim city. The narrow white-washed streets which surround the Mosque lead to the only surviving synagogue, to Gothic churches with Mudéjar towers, houses with Plateresque façades, Renaissance palaces in which courtyards follow in rapid succession. Gothic convents with Baroque treasures, unassuming houses with courtyards covered with flowers, palaces and hospital converted into magnificent museums and unsuspected squares: the Potro and Crist de los Faroles Squares or the Corredera colonnade. The Roman Calahorra bridge and the Alcázar (Palace) of the Christian Kings, enlarged with splendid gardens, are preserved in a highly restores state. Oh yeah, so much for muslim tolerance! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
I guess your voice must be very, very low, it must be hard to talk to you face to face? bad breath & all say that again, NOT is the same as never, right? BTW, do you ever read non-muslim sources? or are you such a one track mind? so easily de-railed, oh! proud-whatever your name is! still waiting for an apology, (whisles while he waits, in G minor, with a F flat cresendo in 3/4 time) Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
My ass !! you are quoting ORIENTALISTS sources and you want me to take you seriously !!! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! When the Umayyad were supplanted by the Abbasids in 750 and the centre of Islam relocated from Damascus, Syria to Baghdad, Iraq, a Umayyad prince named Abed Al-Rahman I moved to Spain where Muslims were already established & founded a dynasty with Cordoba as its capital. The kingdom flourished, lasting for nearly 300 years (756-1031). In 929 a restored Umayyad caliphate was set up in Cordoba, in rivalry with the Abbasids in Baghdad: by any standard, Cordoba was the richest, most sophisticated city in Europe. The Great Mosque of Cordoba, one of the most magnificent buildings in the whole of Islamic Architecture, was founded by Abed Al-Rahman I in 784. It followed the customary Arab Architectural plan, a large courtyard with a prayer hall on the south side. It was substantially enlarged on four subsequent occasions (10th c. "I" Abed Al-Rahman I; "II" Abed Al-Rahman II; "III" Al-Hakam II; "IV" Al-Mansur), making it today the largest mosque in Islam outside Samarra. The Qibla wall (nearest Mecca) and the minaret date from the 10th century. The extensive arcades, which eventually quadrupled in number, amounting to 19, or 18 rows of arches, follow an unusual pattern which was faithfully followed in each successive extension. Roman columns were used but, as they were not tall enough, rectangular piers were placed on top, supporting a semicircular arch that in turn supports the roof. Each arch are alternately red brick and white stone, creating, as one looks along the aisles, a striking striped effect. This is repeated in the complex cusped arches before the central mihrab, a space sometimes called the sanctuary, where stone of two contrasting colors is employed. This elaborate and intricate chamber dates from 965 and is almost a separate artwork, unusually large and deep, with introductory trios of three-tiered arches. The decoration here is at its richest, basically floral with inscriptions from the Qur'an in carved plaster, marble and glass & gold mosaic. The vaults whose intersecting ribbed arches support the domes are so complicated they will challenge your eye & brain. And if we look at the outside walls, we find nothing indicate the existence of any church: http://www.islamicarchitecture.org/ia/images/g.m.cordoba10.jpg http://www.islamicarchitecture.org/ia/images/g.m.cordoba11.jpg http://www.islamicarchitecture.org/ia/images/g.m.cordoba17.jpg And oh by the way, apology from christian LIARS like yourself will be REJECTED !! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
So, you only believe muslim sources? so, all infidels are liars no matter what? don't worry, I will never apology to an infidel cresent-moon idolitar that lies all the time, tell the truth & I'll stand with you, lie, & you stand with the devil, the "father of lies"
A few things Proud Muslim forgot to say: He writes of "muslim Spain" as if the seven hundred years that muslims ruled parts of Spain were a continuous uninterrupted period, and as if muslim Spain was a single entity. This was not so. The first invasion may have been greeted with indifference, or even mild welcome, by Spanish people pleased to get rid of the visigoths, but their new muslim rulers were as oppressive as the old. It is curious that PM gives pictures of the beautiful architecture left by some muslims in Spain. Those buildings were put up by the labour and paid for by the taxes of their subjects, and most of the inhabitants were slaves who were there to serve the comfort and convenience of their masters. For most of their history in Spain, the muslim kingdoms were much like the other kingdoms in Spain: taking a practical line, making allies where they could regardless of religion. They allied with christian states against other muslim states when it was convenient and used islam chiefly as a way to get allies from Morocco and other muslim countries. It was not only muslim Spain which was- by the low standards of the time- tolerant. Christians from other parts of Europe were shocked by the toleration of the Spanish christian kingdoms. Toleration was not a principal, but a practical necessity- as can be seen by what happened in a re-united Spain. Islamic toleration was not what we would understand by the term now: christians and jews were second-class subjects, the slaves of the slaves of god, with special extra taxes to pay for their toleration and expected to submit to muslim rule. For example, between 850 and 859, 48 christians were executed for religious offences in Cordova alone: certainly, they were foolish to break the laws, but a regime which executes for religious reasons is certainly not "tolerant" by contemporary standards. From time to time there were massacres of jews and christians in muslim areas to remind them of their place, and, by withdrawing toleration, to make them appreciate it. Nor were the muslims exactly tolerant among themselves. Many of the wars within muslim Spain and between muslim states were inspired by the Arab view of berbers and Spanish muslims as second-class subjects. Indeed, the "golden age of muslim Spain"- the Umayyad dynasty- was not ended by the christians of Spain, but by civil war, a break up into statelets and an invasion by Moroccan berbers who decided they had had quite enough of this unislamic behaviour. When these invaders, the almoravids, had settled in Spain and begun to show signs of decadence, taste and toleration, they too were disposed of by the almohads. They too became lax (the great philosopher Averroes was supported by the almohads, even though they had to exile him for his opinions), but this time it was the Castilians who restricted muslim rule in Spain to Granada. Granada lasted, but only because it was too weak to matter, and because the Spanish kingdoms were fighting each other for the next couple of centuries. It's worth remembering that the myth of tolerant islamic Spain was spread by English and American popular historians, who knew little of, and feard little from muslims, while they knew and hated Spaniards. Certainly, mediaeval islam was probably more tolerant- or rather, less intolerant- than mediaeval christianity, but it shows something of the mindset of modern islam that Proud Muslim and others are particularly proud of a bunch of murderous invaders and despots and cite them as a wonderful contemporary example.
Well, you are speaking without credible source ( you have to understand that ORIENTALIST SOURCES are very biased ), I refer you to DEAN DERHAK, famous English Historian, let us read what he wrote: ''When you think of European culture, one of the first things that may come to your mind is the renaissance. Many of the roots of European culture can be traced back to that glorious time of art, science, commerce and architecture. But did you know that long before the renaissance there was a place of humanistic beauty in Muslim Spain? Not only was it artistic, scientific and commercial, but it also exhibited incredible tolerance , imagination and poetry. Moors, as the Spaniards call the Muslims, populated Spain for nearly 700 years. As you'll see, it was their civilization that enlightened Europe and brought it out of the dark ages to usher in the renaissance. Many of their cultural and intellectual influences still live with us today. '' http://www.xmission.com/~dderhak/index/moors.htm This is utter and pure and blatant nonesense, the people who built these amazing palaces were from the Muslim Orient, mainly from SYRIA, they were MUSLIMS and they were very happy to build what they were building. You are talking about later age in the history of Muslim Spain or what we call it in ARABIC: MULUK AL TAWAEF ( the kings of small emirates ) this era started in the 13th century and evantually led to the muslim retreat from AL ANDALUS ( Spain ). LMAO !!! toleration of the spanish christian kingdoms !! are you serious ?? GIVE ME A BREAK !!! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Again, pure NONESENSE with no credible evidence.....here is something about MUSLIM TOLERANCE IN SPAIN WITH CREDIBLE NON-ORIENTALIST WESTERN REFERENCES: Through the centuries, many important positions, including the highest offices under Muslim rulers, were held by Christians and Jews. In spite of the fact that in the remainder of Europe non-Christian faiths were, in the main, not accepted, the Muslims of Al-Andalus remained faithful to a policy of scrupulous tolerance. At times, this respect for other religions was sorely tested, like that which happened during the 9th century in Cordova. Some Christians found that it was almost impossible to maintain their religion in a country that offered no apparent persecution. Alvaro, a Christian theologian, is reputed to have complained that the Arabic language had become so alluring to young Christians that they could hardly write a letter in Latin, their own language. Rather, they revelled in the intricacies and beauty of the Arabic tongue. The clergy, seeing that their flocks were becoming Arabized and many embracing the Islamic faith, tried to stop the conversions. Nuns and monks began to publicly blasphemize the Prophet Muhammad, but the Muslims never changed their policy of tolerance. Only the guilty were persecuted after the judges tried every method to have them recant their denunciations. Due to the open society in the Iberian Peninsula, the Jewish golden age in literature developed under Muslim rule, especially between the 10th and 12th centuries. During this period, when Jews in the remainder of Europe were hardly tolerated, in Al-Andalus, the Hebrew tongue developed its grammar and vocabulary on the model of the Arabic language. The uncommon openness of life in this medieval state gave a chance for a great number of Jews to become renowned literary men in both Arabic and Hebrew. Discussing the unparalleled tolerance shown for Jews by the Spanish Arabs in the 10th century under the rule of Abd al-Rahaman III, Elmer Bendiner in his book The Rise and Fall of Paradise writes: "There was thus no pressure on Jews in tenth-century Andalusia to retire into a ghetto. There were no laws and scarcely any customs that confined Jews to any place or occupation. When their gates were shut they were the ones who shut them." At the same, in the remainder of Europe, all life revolved around rigid Christianity. Truth within the church could only be conceived by faith alone, as opposed to reason. That is, until Thomas Aquinas in the 13th century reconciled faith and reason. In this, he was greatly influenced by Muslim philosophers like Averroës whose works had been translated into Latin, in the 11th century, after the fall of Toledo. In the subsequent years, the classical legacy, long outlawed by the Church, was made available through the translation of Arabic books. Along with Arab learning, developed throughout the Islamic world, the classical tradition was reaccepted by Christendom, setting the West on the road to greatness. The exceptional tolerance practised by the Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula continued until Al-Andalus began to be overwhelmed by the Christian states of the north. When refugees commenced to stream southward into Muslim controlled areas, religious tolerance began to give way to narrow-mindedness. The extraordinary tolerant medieval Islamic state of Al-Andalus, which many Arab historians have called an 'Earthly Paradise', began to fade away. REFERENCES Bendiner, E., The Rise and Fall of Paradise, G.P. Putnam's. Sons, New York, 1983. Burkhardt, T., The Moorish Culture in Spain, (Translated by A. Jaffa), George Allen and Unwin Ltd., London, 1972. Castro, A., The Spaniards, University of California Press, Los Angeles, 1971. Chejne, A.G., Muslim Spain, It's History and Culture, The University of Minnesota Press, Minneapolis, 1974. Dozy, R., Spanish Islam, Frank Cass, London, 1972. Imamuddin, S.M., Some Aspects of the Socio-Economic and Cultural History of Muslim Spain, E.J. Brill, Leiden, 1965. Read, J., The Moors in Spain and Portugal, Faber and Faber, London, 1974. Sordo, E., Moorish Spain, Elek, London, 1963. As for the rest of your post, it is all typical anti muslim orientalist nonesense.
The question is not whether they are- or are not- "biased", but whether what they wrote is true. Who is Dean Derhak? Famous, he may be, but none of his books are in the British Library. The people who ordered these amazing palaces to be built were, no doubt, very happy. Whether the people who paid the taxes for them, laboured to put them up and served as slaves in them were quite so enthusiastic is a very different matter. You wrote of muslim Spain as if it were one continuous, uninterrupted entity. I merely pointed out that it was a little more complicated. I am glad you have learned that that was so. It does not matter if I am serious. i am right. The christian kingdoms of Spain were- then- quite prepared to ally with muslim kingdoms and to govern muslim and jewish subjects, as long as they paid extra taxes. The muslims of Granada, it is worth remembering, revolted against the almohads and preferred christian rule. Christians then were every bit as tolerant as the muslims. Later, of course, when they were able to, the church in Spain took a different view of muslims and descendants of muslims. All of your references were to Umayyad Spain. As I said, the almarovids- among others- didn't approve of this unislamic behaviour. I notice that while you quote people who blame those who were killed for blasphemy, you have, it seems, no objection to the laws under which they were killed. A limit to toleration, don't you think? I agreed that compared with the rest of Europe Spain was comparatively tolerant, and mediaeval islam- except with polytheists- was by-and-large- less intolerant than mediaeval christians. I just don't think that's saying much in their favour. I pointed out that many historians of Spain were biased against roman catholics and Spaniards. The other thing to remember is that these accounts of muslim Spain ultimately derive from muslim sources. No doubt these are entirely reliable and unbiased in your eyes, but others are a little more dubious. To describe truths you do not like- would you care to find a lie in my summary?- as "typical anti-islam orientalist nonsense" may convince you, PM. The problem is, you have to persuade other people.
Most knowledge was most often of Hellenistic origins and not Arab.., or was Persian which they 'stole' after they invaded the region. The start of the islamicisation in Spain took place in 711 AD, and Mohammed's Egira in 622 AD. Mecca was only surrender to Islam in 630 AD. Which knowledge could have developed a nomadic tribe of goat herders from the Arabian Peninsula in such small period of time? Right after taking over Arabia they started expanding through modern Iran and Iraq through the East, and Egypt and Lybia through the West. In 711 AD, when they were called in to help a rebellion in Hispania, they had not yet finished conquering the Berbers of North-Western Africa
you mean this famous Dean Derhak? so, is it this famous DD or are there more? hahaha Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ha "sordo", means "deaf", which is ironic, seeing how you're 'deaf' to reason before scholars started to specialize in countries, peoples or civilizations, most Egyptian, ME &/or Asian scholars were "orientalists"
too late, BTW, this gave me an incentive to look up that famous English historian "Dean Derhak", whoever he may be, hehehe
oh, about 4 thousand years of chinese rule, muslims conquer it for a few hundred years, & its suddenly "muslim"? is Spain next? I fear for the US you miss the point, you bring up Pakistan & Malaysia as examples of "proud muslim" achievements, I'm just pointing out, that those countries leave much to be desired
The Renaissance that started in fourteenth century in Italy was mostly a secular and humanistic movement. It propagated for rationalism and knowledge instead of blind faith. It was also a period with a great interest in roman and greek culture, and turnaround from the Medieval church. The reasons the renaissance started was not that much of islamic Spain, but of several other reasons: When the catholic church gets more powerful in the eleventh century, many priest and bishops getting richer, while most people are poor. That makes people starting to doubt the truth in the church. Medieval "thinkers" like Abelard, Bacon and Thomas of Auqinas are starting to challenging the knowledge of the church. New ideas and cultures comes to Europe when the europeans meets muslims, greeks and other people far away(like marco polo in China). In the eleventh century, the italian cities takes control over the trade in mediterrean sea, between the old rich east and the new west. The italians grow richer and they can spend it on artistery. The rich italian cities compete with each other and they are paying artist to enrich their cities. The feudal society crushes in the fourteenth century and people seeks other truth then the old church. It was a contempt for the auktoritarian church, the wealth of italian cities and a longing for ancient rome and greece that started the renaissance in the fourteenth century and not islamic Spain.
Proud muslim has not posted in sciforums for years now, so you may find he may not reply to your questions or comments.
It also depends on the specific ruler for any given period. Saying Muslim Spain was 'tolerant' or 'intolerant' are both just generalisations.
Wow....I mean really, wow. I can't believe no one has challenged this guy on his "facts" and "information" yet. Are you people really swallowing half this s#*%? How is a religious zealot like this guy even taken seriously here at the SCIENCE forums? I mean for the love of pete, look at his username! It reeks of the blatant brain-washing that accompanies many cults and religions (most notably Islam). The next thing you know, he's going to say that Muslims discovered air or gravity.... FIRST OF ALL, for most of the "scientific advances" that this clown purports to attribute to Muslims and Arabs (Mathematics, Astronomy, etc) - most of these ideas were translated from Chinese, Greek, and Indian texts into Arabic and then relayed to the Enlightened Europeans (after waking up from the Dark Ages WITHOUT the influence of muslims I might add....once again, please cite real evidence and not propaganda as to how you think Muslims ushered in the renaissance in Europe? Unbelievable...). Islam was only founded 1300 years ago, whereas all the other civilizations I mentioned earlier had been going for a good thousand years or more before Islam was even conjured up! It is because Enlightened Europeans were first re-exposed to these ideas by the Arabs, without any knowledge of historical accuracy of where these ideas came from, that they [falsely] attributed these advances to the Arabs. The Arabs are no more the enlightened scientists that they say they are than the Americans are the inventors of the English Language! Many of the Geometric theorems and rules that the Arabs claim to have "discovered" have now been known to have existed in Greece a good 800 years before Mohammad was even born. The same thing applies to the discoveries in the field of Algebra and Calculus [now being attributed to the Indians] and Astronomy and Navigation [to the Chinese]. So you can say, that the Arabs were simply translators or bridges of the information between the Pre-Islamic Ancient civilizations and the Enlightened Europeans, who then brought science into the realm that we know it as today. It should be noted that in the scientific world today, increasingly this myth of the age of "Arab Enlightenment and Scientific Discovery" is only now being debunked and exposed as the propaganda that it is, and the true credit is being given to those civilizations which deserve the credit. To say that Arabs or Muslims are responsible for all the scientific advances that they purport to have discovered is sheer lunacy and curtailing to their propaganda! Custodians of information, yes; discoverers of Scientific Principles, no....Do your own research people, don't take propaganda from this guy [or anyone for that matter] seriously. As for your glorious Muslim Heritage Proud_Muslim, I would urge you to look deeply and honestly at the pain and suffering that your religion has caused all around the world in the past and which it is still causing today. My Hindu ancestors were pillaged, killed and eventually driven out of their ancestral home in Kashmir by "peaceful" muslims to the point now that it has now become nearly entirely a muslim population. We can never go back, and neither can the millions displaced by your muslim brothers. You say you all are "seperatists", but the ugly truth is that Muslims are to blame for the violence and displacement of indigenous peoples in countries like Indonesia, Russia [Chechnya], Thailand, India [Kashmir], Phillipines, former Yugoslavia, Sudan, etc etc the list goes on. Why is it that you muslims are fighting so many different types of people from all across the world? Christians, Hindus, Jews, African Animists....you muslims are in conflict with all types of people. The only common factor in all these incidents is Islam. Oh and also, if you so despise the open and free society that is available here in Britain, please, go and live under some sharia-run paradise in the middle east. No one in the West is stopping you, I promise. We have no room for fundamentalists such as yourself who want to impose your ridiculous medieval dogma unto the rest of us.
Proud Muslim isn't here anymore, and many people did challenge his biased view of muslim history. It is interesting that Wahabists are now seeking a return of Muslim rule of Spain, and a restoration of the Caliphate.
