The Hindu Kush

Discussion in 'History' started by NO1, Aug 1, 2010.

  1. NO1 I Am DARKNESS Registered Senior Member

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    The Hindu Kush is a 500-mile mountain range stretching between north-western Pakistan and eastern and central Afghanistan. The highest point in the Hindu Kush is Tirich Mir (7,708 m or 25,289 ft) in the Chitral region of the Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa Province of Pakistan.

    It is the westernmost extension of the Pamir Mountains, the Karakoram Range, and is a sub-range of the Himalayas. It is also calculated to be the geographic center of population of the world. [1]


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_Kush

    Id like to hear any debate about it being the 'center of population.' For who?
    Why is it 'Hindu' when its not in India rather on the western & eastern border of Pakistan and Afghanistan respectively. And what does 'Kush' mean? In my dialect i think it could mean happiness? TIA.
     
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  3. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Kush is Persian for mountain. Sindi/Sindu/Hindi/Hindu was a generic term used by Persians for people east of the Sindhu/Indus. The term underwent a change in colonial times [1800s]-when the British invented the term Hinduism as an umbrella term for all the philosophies/religions of India that were unfamiliar to them.

    Re:center of population, look up the Silk Road. For the Persians before they took over trade from the Arabs, the Hindu Kush was a major trade route. So also for the Chinese. It is said [Travels of Ibn Batuta if I am not mistaken] that the Khyber Pass was littered with the bodies of slaves who died in transport.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2010
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  5. NO1 I Am DARKNESS Registered Senior Member

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    ^ Hi SAM. So we Hindus did not name ourselves? We were given a name by the British. And before them we were called Sindus by the Persians? Sanskrit Is known to be the Oldest language in the world, and that developed in India. How could we read and write and not give ourselves our own names before being colonized by the British?

    re: I recall some of that in history class in High School. I'll look it up
     
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  7. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    A very strange query. Who names themselves? Identity is always imposed from without.

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    Prakrit is as old as Sanskrit. Don't tell me you don't know who the asuras [Ahuras] are!!!!
     
  8. superstring01 Moderator

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    A great many people, Sam.

    Unless you can support the claim that "humans" were named by somebody off planet.

    ~String
     
  9. NO1 I Am DARKNESS Registered Senior Member

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    interesting point. I never heard of Prakrit, but have heard of Asuras. I had to look them up though, to know who they are.

    But, going back to my original Q. the CoP, I thought historical 'Africa' was were humanity began? Maybe before tectonic shifting?
     
  10. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I'm not sure what the Africans have to do with this /scratches head

    My knowledge of Iranian history is very superficial, but from what I recall, the ancient Iranian peoples and the ancient Indian peoples have common ancestors who came down from Central Asia. Fraggle is probably a better authority for this, but possibly sea/river routes were a better mode of travel than jungles and deserts which may explain why Indo-Aryans descended down from Central Asia. Sanskrit was a liturgical language, the exclusive property of Brahmins,, Prakrit was the language of the Kshatriyas and since soldiers travel, it was a cross between the Aryan languages of the time and Sanskrit [ie a kind of vernacular]. Note how the S/H transpose between Sanskrit and Prakrit [Asura/Ahura, Sindu/Hindu]. Its quite possible that many Aryan language terms were inculcated into the vernacular Indian languages [in fact, its quite certain they are] so calling the Hindu Kush, "mountain of those guys in the east" could quite easily have been "mountain of us guys in the east" i.e. its uncertain who named them.

    On a side note you may be interested to know that in Iranian mythology, the devas are the bad guys.

    You had to look them up???

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    Doesn't anyone read Amar Chitra Katha anymore?:bawl:
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2010
  11. NO1 I Am DARKNESS Registered Senior Member

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    Last edited: Aug 1, 2010
  12. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I grew up reading ACK, Chandamama and Tinkle [Diamond Comics and Uncle Pai zindabad] - what I like most about them is that there are many versions of the same story, so no one has to get stuck on one "true" version of history. They are also incredibly secular, giving equal weight to all the cultures and philosophies and religions of India. Most of what I know about ancient Indian history can probably be traced to ACK before I grew up and heard of textbooks on the same. Its a shame, but as a nation we Indians have lost the art of storytelling, churning out formulas instead of depth. Still, in the last decade or so, I have seen a lot of regenerated interest in Indian history beyond colonial times [for example, Amartya Sen's incredible book on The Argumentative Indian]

    For your nephew, I recommend also Nehru's A Discovery of India, either the book or the television series [Bharat: Ek Khoj] by the inimitable Shyam Benegal [if your nephew understands Hindi, the series is in Hindi but the book is in English]. Bharat is what we named our country btw and we can always call ourselves Bhartiya

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    Last edited: Aug 1, 2010
  13. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I found some more stuff on the word "Hindu"

    I cannot corroborate it so I do not know if its true, but its out there and so I offer it:

    source: Essentials of Hindutva by Veer Savarkar

    The Sapta Sindhu part seems to be correct

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapta_Sindhu
     
  14. Sock puppet path GRRRRRRRRRRRR Valued Senior Member

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    Found this

    Before the islamic invasion the areas of modern Pakistan and Afghanistan were populated by "Hindus"
     
  15. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    That sounds like revisionist history from the Hindutva brigade - what is the source? Do they know that the British invented the term Hinduism which excluded Muslims and Christians in the 1800s? Before that Hindus were what Hindis are today in the Arab Persian world - Indians. And that the "Islamic invasions" were all wars fought between the Mongol Turks and the Delhi Sultanates? Afghanistan was considered part of India as well and so was Pakistan until the British came.

    The "Islamic invasion" as such did not come from the north or the west. The south of India was where Muslims from Arab lands first came to India to evangelise. South Indians were the first to convert to Islam. The Cheruman masjid is the second oldest mosque in the world, second only to the one in Mecca. It is 1300 years old and precedes the Mughals and Delhi sultanate by more than 500 years. Its also older than the Masjid that Umar built in Jerusalem, the Masjid al Aqsa.

    I've already posted this before:

    More links in the original post

    http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2377168&postcount=102
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2010
  16. Sock puppet path GRRRRRRRRRRRR Valued Senior Member

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    They had the best researched background on the term that I saw footnoted from several reputable sources.

    I was refering to the start of the islamic invasions all the way back to Al Muhallab ibn Abi Suffrah and Muhammad bin Qasim who led an invasion in 711 which coincidentally is the exact same year muslims invaded spain almost halfway around the globe.
     
  17. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Then you should know they were Arabs who fought the Rajputs who have never converted to Islam [and are still around] and Sindhis who did not convert at the time [but were still around to convert later on, and in fact are still around even as Hindus]. Hindu Kush has no meaning in Arabic. They are both Indic words, either Aryan or Indo-Aryan, not Semitic.The Arabs never made it to the Hindu Kush, which is very far from West India, its North India in fact, where the Persians crossed. Its why Afghans speak a dialect of Persian [Dari]. Moreover the word Hindu Kush precedes all this stuff. Its dated far before the Muslim "invasion" and has been used since before Alexander the great. Maybe even before that since since when the Kushans ruled the region

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kushan_Empire

    Or even before that since the Scythians also have hindu-kus [which means Indian side, rather than Indian mountain]

    You still haven't given your source or their "reputable" references. I'll bet 110% its either from Lal or some other Hindutva acolyte.

    But carry on, it is the job of westerners to play divide and rule with Indians

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    Except for rabid fundamentalists most of us know better than to believe the James Mills of our times/
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2010
  18. nirakar ( i ^ i ) Registered Senior Member

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    Probably off topic but the 1920,1930, and 1940 United States census was referring to the race/ethnicity of all people in the USA who's ancestors came from what is now Pakistan, India and Bangladesh as Hindus regardless of their religion. Many of the early immigrants to the USA from South Asia were Sikhs. More of these so called American Hindus may have been Sikh than Hindu.
     
  19. nirakar ( i ^ i ) Registered Senior Member

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    From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_of_population :

    "In demographics, the center of population (or population center) of a region is a geographical point that describes a centerpoint of the region's population. There are several different ways of defining such a "center point", leading to different geographical locations; these are often confused.

    Three commonly used (but different) center points are:

    1. the mean center, also known as the centroid or center of gravity;
    2. the median center, which is the intersection of the median longitude and median latitude;
    3. the geometric median, also known as Weber point, Fermat–Weber point, or point of minimum aggregate travel.

    A further complication is caused by the curved shape of the Earth. Different center points are obtained depending on whether the center is computed in three-dimensional space, or restricted to the curved surface, or computed using a flat map projection.
    [edit] Mean center

    The mean center, or centroid, is the point on which a rigid, weightless map would balance perfectly, if the population members are represented as points of equal mass.

    Mathematically, the centroid is the point to which the population has the smallest possible sum of squared distances. It is easily found by taking the arithmetic mean of each coordinate. If defined in the three-dimensional space, the centroid of points on the Earth's surface is actually inside the Earth. This point could then be projected back to the surface. Alternatively, one could define the centroid directly on a flat map projection; this is, for example, the definition that the US Census Bureau uses.

    Contrary to a common misconception, the centroid does not minimize the average distance to the population. That property belongs to the geometric median.
    [edit] Median center

    The median center is the intersection of two perpendicular lines, each of which divides the population into two equal halves. Typically these two lines are chosen to be a parallel (a line of latitude) and a meridian (a line of longitude). In that case, this center is easily found by taking separately the medians of the population's latitude and longitude coordinates.
    [edit] Geometric median

    The geometric median is the point to which the population has the smallest possible sum of distances (or equivalently, the smallest average distance). Because of this property, it is also known as the point of minimum aggregate travel. Unfortunately, there is no direct closed-form expression for the geometric median; it is typically computed using iterative methods.

    World

    It is important to use a culturally neutral method when dealing with the entire world. As described in INED (Institut national d'études démographiques),[2] the solution methodology deals only with the globe, and not with a two-dimensional projection of the Earth's surface. As a result, the answer is independent of which map projection is used or where it is centered. As described above, the exact location of the center of population will depend on both the granularity of the population data used, and the distance metric. With geodesic distances as the metric, and a granularity of 1,000 kilometers (600 mi), meaning that two population centers within 1000 km of each other are treated as part of a larger common population center of intermediate location, the world's center of population is found to lie "at the crossroads between China, India, Pakistan and Tajikistan", essentially located in Afghanistan, with an average distance of 5,200 kilometers (3,200 mi) to all humans [1]. The data used in the reference support this result to only a precision of a few hundred kilometers, hence the exact location is not known."







    From the article that you linked to earlier, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_Kush :

    "
    Etymology theories

    The origin of the term "Hindu Kush" is a point of contention. There are various theories for its origin, but some of these are usually considered to be folk etymology[citation needed]:

    * James Rennell, writing in 1793, referred to the range as the "Hindoo-Kho or Hindoo-Kush"[3] "The same hindu- 'mountain' (in Scythian or Saka languages) is in the name Hindǚ-kuš, where the kuš means 'side, region' connected with Chr. Sogd. qwšy 'side' with -ti- Armenian Parthian k'oušt 'side, region' .... Old Indian has both koṣa- and kośa- ....", neither of which mean "mountain".
    * As a corruption of Hindu Kūh, meaning "Hindu Mountains" or "Indian Mountains", from the (modern) Persian word Kūh (کوه), meaning mountain. The Persian word with Perso-Arabic alphabet or New Persian "Kūh" (کوه) exist at least since the ninth century. Ferdousi writes in its book Shahnameh Kūh-e Hind (کوه هند, "Indian Mountain").[4] it seems to be hind- o- kash the line which divide to territorial limits. in local language kash mean wool. similarly kash mir or kash nmir mean eastern kash and kash ghar mean westren kash. if you see kash mir and kash ghar on the maps it is exactly east and west
    * Iranian for "Hindu-Killer", referring to events in the area when Persian and Central Asian armies took over the area. The captives from the Indian sub-continent (which was known as 'Hind' in Persian - from where the term 'Hindu' originated) used to perish while passing through this rough mountain terrain due to the harsh terrain and climate.
    * A corruption of Caucasus Indicus, a name by which the Hindu Kush range was known in the ancient Western world after its conquest by Alexander the Great in the Fourth century BC. Greek rule in the Hindu Kush region lasted over three centuries, and was followed by the rule of a dynasty known, significantly, as the Kushan. In its early period, the Kushan Empire had its capital near modern-day Kabul. Later, when the Hindu Kush region became part of the Sassanian Empire, it was ruled by a satrap known as the Kushan-shah (ruler of Kushan).[citation needed]
    * A posited Avestan appellation meaning "water mountains".[citation needed]
    * A corruption of Hind-o Kushan, containing the name of the Kushan dynasty that once ruled this region for more than three centuries.[citation needed]
    * That the key word "Kush" in "Hindu Kush" came from Sanskrit kusha or kushika has many meanings including "plowshare", implying the start of Hindu land as after the Hindu Kush mountains the control of the Hindus began.
    * A reference to the last great "killer" mountains to cross when moving between the Iranian plateau and the Indian subcontinent, named after the toll it took on anyone crossing them.
    * In Persian, Hindu Kush means Hindu Slaughter [5]. Persian-English dictionary indicates that the word 'Kush' is derived from the verb Kushtar - to slaughter or carnage. Kush is probably also related to the verb Koshtan meaning to kill. This implies that the Muslim invaders that attempted to invade India from appx 750 CE-1250CE and successfully invaded 1250CE-1750CE, and killed a millions of Hindus during those years."
     
  20. rcscwc Registered Senior Member

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    You mean Rajputs invaded muslims who in turn were fighting off the former? WRONGEST.

    It was Rajputs who were fighting off the muslims.

    Was it immoral of Rajputs tyo refuse to covert to islam?

    You seem to resent the refusal of Hindus to convert to islam, and WORSE for resisting forcible conversion.

    Get your facts rigjht, or choose better phrases.
     
  21. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    No thats not what I said. Since sockpuppet path was referring to Al Muhallab ibn Abi Suffrah and Muhammad bin Qasim , I was merely reminding him that they were Arabs, not Persians and hence had nothing to do with the Hindu Kush. Also they were fighting Indians in the west of India but the Ummayads didn't actually stay in India for long - they were defeated by the Rajputs and returned - which is quite amazing if you consider it since they won against the Persians and Byzantinians. The actual "Islamic" invasion of the country occured in the 12th century when Mongol Turks descended with Babars army.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2010
  22. Enmos Registered Senior Member

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    Wasn't that God?
     
  23. madethesame Banned Banned

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    hindu kush has meaning. the word hindu, you know about it. kush means genocide.
    Hindu kush has been protecting india from invaders, but its secret was known this caused many mascares in India. Hence the name hindu kush.
     

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