The good of Nazi Germany

Discussion in 'History' started by Norsefire, Aug 8, 2009.

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  1. Doreen Valued Senior Member

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    Norsefire,
    I just realized a core problem with your position.

    You think that we should give a balanced presentation of Hitler's strengths and weakness.

    At the same time you think Hitler was logical for suppressing dissenting ideas.

    Do you see the problem?

    You are asking us to not only allow but admit or present dissenting ideas about Hitler's value.

    Something he did not do himself in relation to others.

    He used propaganda and one sided descriptions of people, leaders, issues, historical figures. He presented a one sided view of the German people, himself and his motives, etc.

    But you want us to do what he would never have allowed. And actively.

    See no one is going to come and kill you for having these ideas. Like what would happen to dissenters in Hitler's Germany, hell even to people who might be dissenters.

    But it is not enough for you that you can express your ideas, you think other people are immoral if they don't also mention Hitler's good side. You want everyone to dissent.

    and that is silly.
     
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  3. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    OK. Perhaps you could tell me how this is a good thing about Hitler then. Or does this go in the bad pile?

    Yes. And killing off people in the name of purity is geeeenerally considered to be a "bad thing". Apparently this isn't universal.

    And this doesn't seem the tiniest bit - I don't know - immoral to you?

    You're arguing Hitler had his good points also. This is not a 'good' thing. Sort of by definition. It would be like if I wanted your money and whacked you over the head to fulfill my dreams of having all your pure, pure cash.

    Da. I am Russian speaking now because can see where discussion is headed, reactionary pig.

    Ack! It is like the Imperialist stake through my cold communist heart! The light is growing dim, and not from rolling brownouts! I can barely see the Historical Dialectic! Is...is that you speaking now in the Committee-Approved Afterlife, Comrade Marx?

    Yeah, I get that Stalin was an asshole. It's fairly obvious. Is that the kind of Communism you really think I'm down with? Really?
     
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  5. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

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    It doesn't matter if he did; he was obviously one-sided in one regard. He was a politician and a leader, he had to be; Does that mean we should be? We, if we are to be fair and truly educated of history, must look at all the aspects.



    I'm simply saying that, if we're going to talk about the tragedy, the Soviets suffered alot more than the Jews; and at least they fought back.

    Apparantly not, because not everybody values humanitarianism to the extent that it hinders 'progress'

    It doesn't matter if I think it is immoral; he thought it ws justified and values are subjective. He had his reasoning.

    Nobody is "right" or "wrong"


    Hitler didn't do anything for selfish reasons, he did it for Germany.

    What other communism is there?
     
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  7. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    And so what? They didn't deserve to suffer as much because they couldn't fight back? You realize that the Jews didn't have an army.

    I'm just lumping this stuff together because it's all hugely wrong. You cannot have an intention for good that is somehow justified by the murder of millions of people, let alone the fact that he was totally, completely fucking wrong about it.

    Then epic fail there too.

    The kind where you don't murder millions of people because you don't like them or want to suppress their ethnic group.
     
  8. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

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    The Jews didn't suffer as many losses as the Soviets!


    Sure you can. Again, killing can be strategic and lead to a long-term positive thing (for instance, removing the disabled from society means less diversion of resources for their care; removing the geneticall unhealthy means less malformed people, etc, etc)

    And you say 'murder'; murder is, by definition, wrongful killing. Use 'kill' instead of 'murder' because the latter is not neutral. Hitler killed alot of people; whether or not he murdered them is a matter of opinion


    In politics nobody is "right"

    Besides, that's still your opinion and we shouldn't teach history with opinions.

    The biggest mistake he made was the war; aside from that he did a brilliant job of bringing Germany up.

    Stalin didn't kill for ethnic reasons; he killed dissenters.

    Would you agree to get rid of dissenters in your communism? Remember, he killed evil capitalists (the people you don't like)
     
  9. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Wow. Just wow.


    Wow. Just wow.

    So it's just my opinion that Jewish people are not vermin or a human virus. All rightie.

    Yes; tiny fuck-up, still.

    The Ukranians would dare to disagree with you, I think.

    Nnnnope.

    Ah. So I should murder them, right? Well, sure thing. That'll help. That doesn't sound even a little crazy.
     
  10. Enmos Valued Senior Member

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    I'm having trouble seeing what point you are trying to make. What precisely do you want us to agree with you on ?
     
  11. Killjoy Propelling The Farce!! Valued Senior Member

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    1)Deceived and divided them, in fact. For one, far from "stabbing Germany in the back" - or whatever - during WW1, German Jews by the tens of thousands served on the front lines.
    2)Set the German economy on a road to ruin which it only averted via the seizure of foreign assets, and autocratic financial "mumbo-jumbo".
    3)What is it with this train thing ?
    4)To expedite military transport across Germany.
    5)VW was a scam to appropriate German Worker's Union funds.Also, most "people's Cars" produced during the nazi regime were in fact kubelwagen and schwimmenwagen used by the German army.
    6)Gotta start that indoctrination as early as possible. Also, the nazis didn't so much start the system as take over the one which already existed.
    7)More like grasped desperately at as a last resort, than "encouraged". Both programs languished for lack of funds/backing until nazi Germany was clutching at any means available as the tide of the war turned against them.



    Great idea - reducing your potential gene pool to the smallest one possible.

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    Moreover, they were hypocrites even in this striving for "purity", as sufficiently high ranking or well-connected muckity-mucks in the nazi heirarchy could be "magically Aryanized" by special decree, regardless of what sort of "genetic skeletons" lurked in their proverbial closets.
     
  12. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

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    What "wow"? If we're going to show them respect let's start with the Soviest....y'know, they actually fought and died by the millions.

    This is the simple truth. Humanitarianism, to the extent that it hinders progress, is a negative thing.

    Hitler did value life, just not all life; and there is no obligation to value all life. We all have our different opinions.

    Now, as for Nazi Germany, I've already explained the numerous progressive, and structured things within that country. There was good and bad.


    That is an opinion though. I don't think they are vermin either, but that is still my opinion; what else would it be?
    He is not the first leader to start wars nor was he the last.

    How is this the logical course of action? Why would you let the evil capitalists that are evil and want to exploit you live in your communist paradise? Their elimination is a strategic choice for the greater good of Russia, comrade!

    *Note: I do not really think capitalists are evil

    Is it murder to put to death a criminal? They are evil capitalists, comrade Geoff! It is for Mother Russia!

    Note: see above.

    I'm simply trying to get you all to see past the distortion and to understand that Nazi Germany did good and bad; do not simply accept this force-fed image that of Hitler and the National Socialists. Be unbiased and objective when examining history.

    The Nazis did numerous good things, as well as bad; good things include the environmentalism (which you value, no?), the eugenics (disabled-not disabled, etc), the structuring, and various other innovations, technological and otherwise.
     
  13. Enmos Valued Senior Member

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    So? Why focus on the Nazi's ?
     
  14. Norsefire Salam Shalom Salom Registered Senior Member

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    Obviously, because the Nazis have a very bad reputation throughout history.

    Still, where were the trials for the atrocities and inhumanities committed by the Allies? Please, they are not innocent. Had Hitler won, it would be the Allies that are the evil ones.

    The Nazis did good and bad, so let's examine both.

    Hitler's last testament,
    More than thirty years have now passed since I in 1914 made my modest contribution as a volunteer in the first world war that was forced upon the Reich.

    In these three decades I have been actuated solely by love and loyalty to my people in all my thoughts, acts, and life. They gave me the strength to make the most difficult decisions which have ever confronted mortal man. I have spent my time, my working strength, and my health in these three decades.

    It is untrue that I or anyone else in Germany wanted the war in 1939. It was desired and instigated exclusively by those international statesmen who were either of Jewish descent or worked for Jewish interests. I have made too many offers for the control and limitation of armaments, which posterity will not for all time be able to disregard for the responsibility for the outbreak of this war to be laid on me. I have further never wished that after the first fatal world war a second against England, or even against America, should break out. Centuries will pass away, but out of the ruins of our towns and monuments the hatred against those finally responsible whom we have to thank for everything, international Jewry and its helpers, will grow.

    Three days before the outbreak of the German-Polish war I again proposed to the British ambassador in Berlin a solution to the German-Polish problem—similar to that in the case of the Saar district, under international control. This offer also cannot be denied. It was only rejected because the leading circles in English politics wanted the war, partly on account of the business hoped for and partly under influence of propaganda organized by international Jewry.

    I have also made it quite plain that, if the nations of Europe are again to be regarded as mere shares to be bought and sold by these international conspirators in money and finance, then that race, Jewry, which is the real criminal of this murderous struggle, will be saddled with the responsibility. I further left no one in doubt that this time not only would millions of children of Europe's Aryan peoples die of hunger, not only would millions of grown men suffer death, and not only hundreds of thousands of women and children be burnt and bombed to death in the towns, without the real criminal having to atone for this guilt, even if by more humane means.

    After six years of war, which in spite of all setbacks will go down one day in history as the most glorious and valiant demonstration of a nation's life purpose, I cannot forsake the city which is the capital of this Reich. As the forces are too small to make any further stand against the enemy attack at this place, and our resistance is gradually being weakened by men who are as deluded as they are lacking in initiative, I should like, by remaining in this town, to share my fate with those, the millions of others, who have also taken upon themselves to do so. Moreover I do not wish to fall into the hands of an enemy who requires a new spectacle organized by the Jews for the amusement of their hysterical masses.

    I have decided therefore to remain in Berlin and there of my own free will to choose death at the moment when I believe the position of the Fuehrer and Chancellor itself can no longer be held.

    I die with a happy heart, aware of the immeasurable deeds and achievements of our soldiers at the front, our women at home, the achievements of our farmers and workers and the work, unique in history, of our youth who bear my name.

    That from the bottom of my heart I express my thanks to you all, is just as self-evident as my wish that you should, because of that, on no account give up the struggle but rather continue it against the enemies of the Fatherland, no matter where, true to the creed of a great Clausewitz. From the sacrifice of our soldiers and from my own unity with them unto death, will in any case spring up in the history of Germany, the seed of a radiant renaissance of the National-Socialist movement and thus of the realization of a true community of nations.

    Many of the most courageous men and women have decided to unite their lives with mine until the very last I have begged and finally ordered them not to do this, but to take part in the further battle of the Nation. I beg the heads of the Armies, the Navy, and the Air Force to strengthen by all possible means the spirit of resistance of our soldiers in the National-Socialist sense, with special reference to the fact that also I myself, as founder and creator of this movement, have preferred death to cowardly abdication or even capitulation.

    May it, at some future time, become part of the code of honour of the German officer—as is already the case in our Navy—that the surrender of a district or of a town is impossible, and that above all the leaders here must march ahead as shining examples, faithfully fulfilling their duty unto death.
     
  15. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    I do respect them. If I 'start' with the Jews, it's precisely because they were unarmed and sent en masse to exterimination camps. This was a fairly horrifying and novel thing, back in the day. The Soviets had at least the ability to resist. In their case, it was a war, not an extermination, although that was the eventual end plan.

    Humanitarianism is progress. It would be almost impossible to decouple it from progress. I doubt you could prove otherwise.

    Then he was categorically wrong.

    The truth?

    Stalin would have got on well with you. Expulsion, perhaps? Or simply ignoring them? Or not murdering tens of thousands of people on the laughable charge of "sabotage"?

    I've never seen someone place so much conviction in a spurious straw man, and especially one I've already disavowed.

    Oh, I am.

    That's why I am, without fear of (rational) contradiction able to say that they were monsters.

    Eugenics being a good thing? And technological innovation being their prerogative? Please. Allied scientists well outperformed them. I think it's time for you to step back and try to empirically evaluate your position on the Nazis. Try a list.
     
  16. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Not at all. There just isn't an industry behind every Holocaust. Look up the massacre of millions of Christians by the Bolsheviks.
     
  17. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Having an industry behind it was exactly what make it "the" Holocaust.
     
  18. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Correct. Nothing makes history like a dominating narrative, no matter how true or false.
     
  19. Doreen Valued Senior Member

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    You are each using industry in different ways, which is something you both know, or perhaps not.

    The industry of creating a narrative.
    The industy of killing.

    But SAM, in context the truism you say above is really pretty offensive. Here we are in a thread saying that Hitler was really a pretty good guy. And he was devilishly good at modifying and extending a dominating narrative in relation to Jews. And of course others. That Jews and others have used the results of Hitler's dominating narrative sometimes immorally, sometimes to mask other similar holocausts could perhaps in another thread be a nice line. Here it comes off as an oblique support of the original dominating narrative and its most successful user/editor: Hitler.

    We don't need to choose between holocausts even is some people try to make us do that. We can note them all.

    See what I mean? This is a thread saying Hitler was OK. It is not here, it seems to me, to raise the issues of what holocausts are suppressed or how part of the holocaust he was a perp in has been misused by some.

    As they say in business: Location, location.

    Unless, this was the intent after all. Benefit of the doubt and all that.
     
  20. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Location location indeed. When 66 million people die in a war and only the deaths of 6 million are retroactively convicted as war crimes, while the rest of the war criminals proclaim "victory", it is indeed all about the narrative.

    What makes it a war crime if you lose the war, but not otherwise? Is there an aristocracy of suffering?

    I think what people object to most in Hitlers Germany, is his efficiency, of carrying out his stated genocide and recording it.

    Other people have learned from this and no longer do body counts [or downplay or dehumanise their collateral damages]. Anonymous victims do not ask for justice.

    The bottom line is: its okay to kill people, lots and lots of them, through any means, if you're better at it than the guy who loses out to you, just don't keep notes and make sure you have a good cover story.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2009
  21. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    So, that's how Muhammad did it. Brilliant!
     
  22. mike47 Banned Banned

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    Is this your belief or other people's belief ?.
     
  23. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Its not a belief, its what happens. Killing people is one of the biggest industries in the world today.


    However, you won't find anyone trying to shut it down. Not in any significant sense.
     
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