The Gay Fray

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Tiassa, Jul 28, 2004.


I am . . . .

  1. Homosexual

    25 vote(s)
  2. Heterosexual

    201 vote(s)
  3. Bisexual

    31 vote(s)
  4. Other (I would have complained if there wasn't an "other" option)

    16 vote(s)
  1. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

    Scalia is a dead man. And gay marriage is legal everywhere. Long live equality.
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  3. wellwisher Banned Banned

    Gay marriage is allowed by law, but freedom of religion, which is much older, is also allowed by law. Both are rights. Many religions believe the concept of marriage is between man and woman. Therefore the state cannot impose gay marriage onto religions, or else the state will be in violation of the separation of church and state. Marriage in religion, came before gay marriage.

    The dividing line is, gay marriage is valid for secular society, but it can't be formally imposed on religions, since this violates long standing traditions. This choice of term will be a source of a stalemate. Rights do not cancel. Rather both rights need to exist. For both rights to exist, they cannot overlap, but will need to stay divided.

    The work around was/is always connected to semantics. If gay marriage had been called gays unions, or anything other than gay marriage, the religious line in the sand, would not be clear cut. No religion formally uses the word union, like they do with marriage. Therefore this word would be much less of a violation of religion belief. There is wiggle room for both sides to meet in the middle, that allow rights for both.

    The poke to the eye path, by choosing to insult a long held religious term; marriage, appears to have been designed by the Democrats to perpetuate hostility, so the gays are forever dependent on them; votes. The Democrat party has a habit of making divisions, that will not resolve. The Democrats have been in charge of the war on poverty for 50 years and nothing has changed. The same percent of poor still exists and are still at odds with the evil rich. This strategy of division that never resolves keeps their sheep in the chute for shearing; votes.

    If you look at Democratic party blacks, they are told it is someone else, from the other side, holding them back. I am not doing anything, yet I am blamed just by being on the other side. Right off the bat, the Democrats have deliberately created a fight. If gays really wanted to coexistence, you can't insult your host and take away their rights. Didn't your mother teach you manners?

    Don't let the democrats con you, since they don't care about you. The gays are a pawn they need for chess. You get sacrificed in their games; never will resolve in 50 years, and then they will blame the enemy so you can't leave. This is Democrat 1.0.
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  5. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

    Noone's forced any church to perform a gay wedding yet that I know of. So you're raising a huge red herring.

    Calling gay marriage anything other than that, be it domestic partnership or union or whatever, would be a case of separate but equal, like having separate dining facilities for black people. That would be an explicit attempt to relegate gay people to a second class status, as if allowing them to marry somehow corrupts marriage. The core of that is a homophobic hatred for gay people. Equal marriage rights is the only course of action. It is a matter of equality and inclusion.

    LOL! Right. The democrats are going to feed us to the wolves after pushing for our equal rights for adoption, for military service, for equal employment, and for marriage all these years. Uh no..that'd be your party.
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2016
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  7. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Notes on Sickness

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    The irony here is that a minister has been arrested for attempting to perform a gay wedding↗. They charged her with trespassing.

    I think what it is, in the end, is that basic instinct by which few people consciously commit evil; ego defense realigns the perspective in order to justify one's misbehavior. In the end, if you let them talk long enough, people eventually tell you the truth. Our neighbor is well past that point.

    Consider his little conspiracy theory. That supremacism is somehow equality is a tautological impossibility; the only thing he can offer in support is a freaking conspiracy theory.

    Our neighbor doesn't actually wish to be evil; he merely wishes equality to require Christian supremacism. That he is down to making shit up in order to feel better about himself is human; that his make-believe is so incredibly uncreative is probably the real indicator of human tragedy.

    Seriously. A conspiracy theory. That's what he came up with this time.

    And pretty flaccid, at that.

    And a sold-soul conspiracy theory? Do we really need to wonder why that is what he came up with? In a time when conservatives who wanted us to believe it wasn't about racism or sexism or Christian supremacism now find themselves staring down the ugly, bitter produce of a generation spent promoting supremacism in order to pander for votes? Of course he comes up with a sold-soul vote-pandering conspiracy theory.

    My question is what we owe this malady. To the one, it is awful to the point of being comedic. To the other, it is still some manner of sickness, and what do we owe the sick? And as if we actually needed a beeblebrox, there are also questions of wilful self-destruction and what it means when that inward loathing requires harm unto others in order to achieve satisfaction. After all, our social instincts compel us to believe this isn't really dangerous behavior, just like those same instincts tell us that's what we always say right up to the point they start shooting.

    Then again, some are safe bets; this one, for instance, probably hasn't any iteration of courage sufficient to move him to such action. That is, one needs to be able to project cowardice as some manner of courage, and clearly we're dealing with a mind whose creative faculties are given over to futility.

    Here's a liberal conundrum: What liberty do we owe his self-destructive behavior? That is, we might not think much of our neighbor as a person, but he is still a person. To what degree do we owe that he should continue to invite the slings and arrows it is already perfectly apparent he is incapable of dealing with?

    What can I tell you? Comedy is cruelty.
    Magical Realist likes this.
  8. wellwisher Banned Banned

    The problem is Democrats cater and corral their voter blocks, with a series of dual standards that cater to insecurities. These dual standard create and perpetuate division in culture. For example, only males can be called sexist via the dual standard. In a rational word, feminists would be called sexist, since if males did the same things, they would be called racist. Black lives matter should be called racist, since it is only concerned with a single race, not the lives of all races. Gays are never called hetero-phobes, even if such behavior is evident.

    The way you unify people is one set of rules for all. If there are two set of rules, you get two teams, that will remain divided. The democrats have always divided people, beginning with owner and slaves, black and white schools, north and south; dual standards. A dual standard unconsciously implies one side is superior and can handle a handicap, while the other side is weaker and needs special crutches. This creates resentment. Those who believe in one standard, see all people as equal so nobody needs to cheat. The democratic insecurity does not allow its base to see they are equal but that tells then they deserve the crutch of the dual standard to help their handicap as a woman, black, or gay.

    The result of the dual standard, whether by lobbyist design, by pure illogic based on sentiment, or just plain ignorance, is the people who are rational will see the dual standard and will attempt to unify people with one standard. The democrats will call any such attempt racists, sexists, homophobic, etc, perpetuating a feud. They need division, via the dual standard, since this unstable situation is like a house of cards and therefore means dependency on the party to fight for you. You need to vote for them or else justice might prevail.

    If Gays can force churches to accept gay marriage, why can't churches force gays to accept difficult concessions? That would be one standard for all; both can force an uncomfortable situation. If both can do this, then maybe neither will try. If there is a dual standard, where only one side can be a bully, and not be called a bully, injustice will perpetuate division and the democrats gets to keep their people on the plantation.

    Don't get me wrong, women, blacks and other minorities had it bad in the past. A dual standard may be justified as retribution for the past. However, in terms of common sense logic, I can see the exact people who were wronged, gaining justice and the people who did the injustice paying for it. But the current scam extrapolates this to people who not there.

    In modern times, the official scape goat is the white, male, Christian, heterosexual via the dual standard. When will this demographic get all the spoils, and those who use the dual standard, pay the price? This is real compare to the pretend by association of dual standards. We need to get rid of the dual standard and call it even.
  9. PhysBang Valued Senior Member

    This is insanity. You've just bought into popular lies about these things. I understand that you want to believe these lies, but when it comes to divisions, it is the people who resent their power fleeing that tell these lies and try to keep divisions.
  10. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

    Noone can force a church to marry gay people. You're making that shit up.
  11. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    No, he's making up a few new popular lies.

    "In a rational word, feminists would be called sexist, since if males did the same things, they would be called racist."


    He's so worked up this time he can't keep his potsherds in order.

    But in the end, he does tell us where it hurts:

    "In modern times, the official scape goat is the white, male, Christian, heterosexual via the dual standard."


    See, all he wants is that old equality in which white, Christian, heterosexual males declared what they wanted, and everybody else gave it to them. They're putting a lot of effort into making demands, so why isn't anyone else doing their part by giving over?

    You know, 'cause call that off and the whole world goes to hell. Why can't the white, Christian, heterosexual men just be God? Then they could go back to saving everyone else's souls with theft and rape and torture and warfare, just like they have for thousands of years.

    Then again, I do wonder about that. Do certain groups ever get tired of being depicted so poorly by their supporters? That is, if I deliberately cast a white, Christian, heterosexual male to behave like Wellwisher's stereotype, should white, Christian, heterosexual males not complain at being depicted as such terrible and dangerous brutes?

    It's actually one of the great tells in American political discourse; some people are just fine with denigration as advocacy.

    Then again, sometimes I think that's because they're not paying attention. Compare what Wellwisher is on about to history and I think white, Christian, heterosexual males have every reason to complain that he should not denigrate them so nor call it any manner of advocacy.

    The one thing we can appreciate about our neighbor's paranoid, bigoted stupidity is that as long as he doesn't start shooting, or some stupid shit like that, he provides a fairly detailed glimpse into a nearly raw psyche showing an empowerment class in crisis.

    What it comes down to is that human rights are no longer some oddball stack of ideas granted unto others by the generosity of the white, male, Christian, heterosexual heart; the fact that other people have human rights without the white, heterosexual, Christian males giving a stamp of approval is what has them feeling so oppressed. Because two people can't be equal unless one of them is empowered to be a bully; that's the lamentation, and we're only obliged to take it seriously because some are willing to wreck the place over this.
  12. Sylvester Registered Senior Member

    Gay people can be pretty viscous though too. Sometimes we need a little reality check and one cannot assume a simple matter of stature shall afford one of automatic victim-hood when there are FAR too many VICTIMS out there. They just go unnoticed every day and no one cares...not you, not your little group. Trampled underfoot, they are the true down trodden, not you...pal.
  13. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

    You wouldn't know the first thing about being a victim little man. You and your hateful ilk lost the war. Scalia is wormfood. And the future looks brighter everyday. Viva la your face! lol!

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    Last edited: Mar 8, 2016
  14. Sylvester Registered Senior Member

    So you are a victim by default or a cry baby? Too many REAL victims get swept aside, go unnoticed and no one cares. The other night ,or really any night, i was watching t.v and they have these commercials about animals being abused and i was like...well, wait a minute what about people who are brutalized, where is their commercial?

    NO! see you are the type of person who would walk right past a poor person begging on the street because it is not fashionable show them compassion, because after all, you are a victim...allegedly. Yet, you dont know what it is like to be homeless, what they go through. Females and children have the most disgusting thing things perpetrated on them and one cares, no one gives a F****. And really, the most generous thing i can do for you is to tell you to "go fuck yourself". Because in reality, that would be helping you.
  15. Sylvester Registered Senior Member

    Well ,what i do is if i see a homeless person on the street and i have two dollars in my pocket i gave them one. ? Maybe that homeless guy will be on"ELLEN" dont think so. And why? Dude, tell you right now, i am the real deal.
  16. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

    My my..aren't we judgemental tonight? You don't know a thing about me hater. So carry on with your rants cuz they're more about you than they are me. Oh..and btw..Scalia is playing hopscotch with Fred Phelps in hell now. Isn't that precious? lol! You've also been reported.

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  17. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    If history is any indicator, I doubt the staff will involve themselves with this one. In the first place, it's a pretty teeny-tiny wee li'l offense. And, well, as you have demonstrated, you're capable of finding satisfaction even with that manner of flaccid smallness. It also seems worth noting the only seed he's planting is comedic. That is, to borrow a phrase―

    "Dude, tell you right now, i am the real deal."

    ―isn't that precious?

    Nobody knows what drives our neighbor, but whether it's competition, or two lines and an attitude problem, or maybe he's transferring his mother issues onto you, or something, that was the sort of performance his friends, had he any, would razz him about at the pub for years.

    Okay, maybe not for years. But on the next championship trivia night, for sure.

    Maybe he just has a beef with Sarah McLachlan.
  18. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Brasil: A Killing Field

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    The grim news from the South Side:

    Although transphobia wasn’t mentioned in the report, of the LGBT Brazilians murdered during 2015, 21% were transgender children sex workers, the youngest being 13.

    The GGB (Grupo Gay da Bahia) recently published its report Assassinato de Homossexuais no Brasil (Brazil Homossxual (LGBT) Murders) relative to 2015.

    According to this NGO, from a total of 318 murders in 2015, 37% were transgender (reported as transvestites in media), 52% homosexuals, 16% Lesbians, 10% Bisexual, 7% Heterosexuals mistaken for homosexuals and 1% Heterosexuals companions of trans persons (transvestite lovers/T lovers).

    (Santos, "Brazilian NGO"↱)

    It works out to one murdered queer approximately every twenty-seven hours.

    And this is how it goes:

    A Brazilan woman’s recent facial feminization surgery (FFS), not fully healed was torn apart in the attack.

    Melissa Hudson is a young events promoter and makeup artist. She is 22 years old. She is also transgender. Last Sunday (13), about 4,30 am, she was walking with some friends when suddenly a group of about 20 men attacked them. Her friends manage to escape. She didn’t. As a result, Melissa got bruises on her face and body that include the breakdown of stitches of a facial feminization surgery she underwent last December. In addition, the criminals stole two cell phones from her.

    (Santos, "Trans woman attacked"↱)

    Yeah. It takes twenty men, twenty real men, to do the job.

    The video footage↱ is devastating.

    But this is what the righteous look like.


    Santos, Eduarda Alice. "Brazilian NGO Reports: one LGBT Murder every 27 hours". Planet Transgender. 31 January 2016. 8 March 2016.

    —————. "Trans woman attacked by 20 men, destroys her FFS". Planet Transgender. 18 February 2016. 8 March 2016.

    —————. "Video of 20 men beating a Brazilian Trans Woman has emerged". Planet Transgender. 25 February 2016. 8 March 2016.
  19. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

    I actually feel sorry for this person. It's like watching someone attack the mirror image of themselves. But at the same I am all too familiar of being used as a therapeutic punching bag by conservative homophobes. These people have got to realize that they are lashing out at at real people and not just demons inside their own heads. I know they're miserable. But good god don't take it out on me!
  20. Sylvester Registered Senior Member

    I said Scalia was a smart man, dont you think that being a supreme court judge means someone is smart? Then you said this:

    "You wouldn't know the first thing about being a victim little man. You and your hateful ilk lost the war. Scalia is wormfood. And the future looks brighter everyday. Viva la your face! lol!"

    So you did bring the ad-hom first. Then the "Fred Phelps" remark, then something about me losing a war? Honestly, i dont know what you are talking about, it was too bizarre. Furthermore, i bet i have been to more gay weddings than you have, so i dont understand those comments either. I think you got too excited and are lashing out at me. Lets put it all down to a misunderstanding.
  21. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    The Obvious Question

    Why is it always the guy who just lied who says we should put it down to "misunderstanding"?

    No, seriously, I don't understand why people try to lie like you just did when there is a written record showing what you're leaving out↑.

    And that's the other thing: If you're trying to claim ignorance of the issues in order to make some sort of point, remember that you're claiming and hiding behind ignorance.

    Really, those two points shouldn't be so difficult to figure out.
  22. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Manly Rituals

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    "Untitled": Barbara Kruger, 1981.

    As intricate rituals go, this is one everybody is better off without.

    The football players at Conestoga High School had a nickname for the rituals they performed each week, according to prosecutors.

    No-Gay Thursday.

    Some players avoided the locker room that day, when players considered certain sexual behavior permissible.

    The hazing at the elite Chester County public school, routinely ranked near the top academically in national ratings, escalated into assault one day last fall, authorities said Friday.

    Three seniors, including a team captain, grabbed a freshman they didn't like, who was trying to leave the locker room during a hazing ritual. Two held him down, while the third penetrated his rectum with a broom handle, officials said.

    "That's over 400 pounds of senior holding down this freshman," said Thomas P. Hogan, the Chester County district attorney, adding that the victim was 5-foot-7 and weighed about 160 pounds.


    Ritual sexual abuse. Welcome to ... well, what?

    Hogan said upperclassmen on the football team had held No-Gay Thursdays for at least the last three years.

    Upperclassmen put their genitals on younger students' heads and ground their bodies against their legs. They also forced younger students to strip to their underwear and clean the locker room, which is what happened just before the assault, Hogan said.

    They smacked their fellow students on their behinds and backs hard enough to leave marks, he said.

    "There's nothing I can say right now," Conestoga football coach John Vogan said Friday, referring all questions to a school district official. The district said in a letter Friday night that he had been suspended.

    Football coaches said they were unaware of the hazing, but students participating in other sports knew, Hogan said. "This was the worst-kept secret in the world," he said.

    And while Conestoga might be considered "elite", it really does seem fair to question what's going on in this community; there are allegations that the victim of this crime was himself subject of prosecutorial scrutiny last year for distributing explicit photographs of a thirteen year-old.

    And in the end, many are simply trying to pretend ignorance. One student explained, "I thought it was a joke. I didn't think it was a real thing."

    A former Conestoga football player now at Penn State wanted to support friends: "They would not have allowed this to happen as captains. I know in my heart that's true."

    Except this has been going on for three years, and they just graduated last year.

    Gay gang rape. Good for school spirit, apparently.

    Maybe we ought to haul the parents out for interviews with Dr. Phil in which they tearfully explain how they suppressed their sons' homosexuality, and all in the name of love.

    Or else, you know, maybe they're not gay. Maybe they're just school athletes who have become accustomed to all manner of stupid privilege. Because, seriously, what is it about athletes and gang rape↱? Are they honing their teamwork?

    Honestly, you know, it's not like we weren't holy terrors in my day, but come on. I've found myself wondering before, about school shootings, what changed. And now, really? Just how much effort do I really want to spend figuring out how gay gang rape occurs to a bunch of high school students and just doesn't seem like a bad idea?

    But, yeah, these are rituals everyone will be better off without.


    Bond, Michaelle. "'No-Gay Thursday:' Horrid abuse alleged at Conestoga". The Philadelphia Inquirer. 5 March 2016. 8 March 2016.

    Gibbs, Lindsay. "Coaches, Athletic Director Charged In Horrific Tennessee High School Basketball Rape Case". ThinkProgress. 15 January 2016. 8 March 2016.
  23. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

    I can follow your reasoning. About 21,000 people die of starvation every day (one person every four seconds). There are many, many reasons to take pity on others. In the larger picture, why is homosexuality such a priority? It's sexual behavior. That's their claim to fame. Only in Western culture could such a thing become the focus of so much attention.

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