The Gay Fray

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Tiassa, Jul 28, 2004.


I am . . . .

  1. Homosexual

    25 vote(s)
  2. Heterosexual

    201 vote(s)
  3. Bisexual

    31 vote(s)
  4. Other (I would have complained if there wasn't an "other" option)

    16 vote(s)
  1. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

    You're spot on wellwisher. The religious right does not have any such "childish image of unconditional love" - they simply get married like this:

    I, ____, take you, ____, to be my lawfully wedded(husband/wife), to have and to hold, from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, until death do us part.
    Nothing unconditional about that, hmmm?

    So let's have the woman tack this on, shall we?

    I will love, serve, and obey you as long as we both are alive. Christ told us that the wife must submit herself unto her own husband as unto the Lord.
    That's not conditional love either - I mean, if your partner rapes you or something and you want out, well - just die...

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    *hack / cough / swallow *
    Sorry, carry on...
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  3. Bells Staff Member

    Of course we know what love is..

    "Five midgets, spanking a man covered with 1000-isles dressing. Is that making love?"​

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    South Park jokes aside, what exactly are you trying to say? That parents should not love their LGBT children?
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  5. Bells Staff Member

    Fire Hoses of Salvation

    Right wing Christians appear to have a new darling.

    Meet former fire chief of Atlanta, Kelvin Cochran!

    Kelvin Cochran also moonlights as an author. Kelvin recently published a 162 page book titled "Who Told You That You Are Naked?". The book is a series of lesson plans, authored by Cochran, for local Baptist men bible groups.

    It is, to put it bluntly, a fundamentalist Christian book, which claims that "men who carry the curse of condemnation and deprivation cannot fulfill their purpose as husbands, fathers, community and business leaders.".. Enter the issue. Among other things, Cochran advised that the "curse of condemnation" also included this:

    • “Uncleanness — whatever is opposite of purity; including sodomy, homosexuality, lesbianism, pederasty, bestiality, all other forms of sexual perversion.”

    • “Naked men refuse to give in, so they pursue sexual fulfillment through multiple partners, with the opposite sex, the same sex and sex outside of marriage and many other vile, vulgar and inappropriate ways which defile their body-temple and dishonor God.”

    While he is free to have his beliefs, at issue is the fact that he clearly identified himself as the Atlanta Fire Chief and also declared his intentions when it came to his role as Fire Chief and most importantly, his priorities when it came to how the department was to be managed. And no, his priority was not to ensure public safety and, well, you know, put out fires. No, Former Fire Chief Cochran had other ideas:

    "to cultivate its culture to the glory of God."​

    Ermm okay..

    Arise the next problem with Cochran and his little jaunt as an author.

    Cochran went against the city policy of being granted formal permission to publish his book as is required of his office. City officials said the book caught them completely unaware when it was published. Apparently, the city's ethics officer, Niana Hickson, knew about it, saying that Cochran had requested permission to publish the book but she did not grant it. Cochran disputes this, claiming he was given "verbal permission" by Hickson that absolved him of any further responsibility to pursue official permission.

    Yes, "verbal permission"...

    Which was never apparently granted.

    But this was not his undoing. Not content with having ignored regulation in writing the book and declaring his intention to cultivate "the glory of god" within the department, Cochran went further and it was this that became his undoing. The Mayor's office began to receive complaint about Cochran's behaviour. The manner in which he was "cultivating its culture to the glory of God"? He started to distribute the book out to his employees, subordinates and other government officials.

    After the book was published, several of Cochran's employees complained to the mayor's office that Cochran had been handing out copies to his colleagues and subordinates. Even the mayor's executive assistant was sent one. The city of Atlanta has a very clear non-discrimination policy, and the mayor was rightfully concerned that Cochran was putting the city at risk for violations that could lead to legal jeopardy.

    He was promptly suspended just before Thanksgiving and told to stop and to not talk to the media or anyone else about the issue while an investigation into his actions was ongoing. The investigation was to look at the circumstances in his distributing the books and any effect this may have had on his employees and subordinates and if they affected his leadership. A valid concern.

    Thus the final nail in the coffin was poised.

    During his suspension, Cochran spoke to several Atlanta churches about his "persecution,"garnering all manner of support from his peeps. When Cochran's suspension was up last Tuesday, he returned to work and Mayor Reed promptly fired him.​

    Not surprisingly, he has become somewhat a darling of the right wing Christian quarter.

    Since then, the familiar faces of bigotry have been coming out of the woodwork to claim Kelvin Cochran as a valuable prize in their bogus mission to portray themselves as victims of state-sanctioned persecution. The Family Research Council, Redstate's Erick Erickson, theNational Organization for Marriage, Fox News' Todd Starnes, and the far-right elements of the Catholic Church are all jumping on this story, hoping to make January payroll by declaring Cochran a victim of out-of-control secularism. It's their new ka-ching and they are poised to exploit it.

    All of these faux hopping-mad claims of religious persecution were overshadowed this week by the joy in Florida and the tragedy that unfolded in Paris. Despite their bad timing, expect these players will not be letting this story go any time soon. It will be pointed to time and time again as proof that Christians are one innocent remark away from being hauled off in box cars.

    Calls to sign petitions to reinstate Cochran are flying around the internet. With each telling of his story, his persecution becomes more dire and urgent. The very foundations of Christianity are at stake. Won't you send a few dollars? Clearly, the religious right is gearing up to highlight this as their most high-profile casualty to date. Fortunately, it also provides a clear example of a city official overstepping the boundaries of what is and isn't acceptable behavior in the public sphere

    Those who believe that disgust over their rampant homophobia is a threat to the foundations of Christianity should perhaps move to Russia.
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  7. Bells Staff Member

    Hope In Hell

    Meet Fuckknuckle Pastor Ray Chavez!

    Fuckknuckle Pastor Ray Chavez heads the New Hope Ministries in Colorado. Here is what its website states about the Church itself and Fuckknuckle Pastor Ray Chavez.

    New Hope Ministries in Lakewood, Colorado is a place where those bound by drugs, alcohol, gangs and violence can find an "Ounce of Hope." If anyone knows the importance of an ounce of hope it's Ray Chavez, who along with his wife Lola, are the founders of New Hope Ministries.

    New Hope Ministries began in 1981 and maintains rehabilitation homes for men, women and troubled youth. He is author of "An Ounce of Hope" that chronicles his struggles and ultimate conversion when he allows Christ into his heart and life.

    "The goal is to reach the lost. There is no cost to people who use the facilities and there are so many success stories from our program. The ministry also reaches out to at-risk children and troubled youth through Center of Hope Academy, an online learning center, where each student can learn at their own pace.

    Ray Chavez would like to leave you with these words: "We're a Center of Hope – with hands of Mercy.

    Hands of Mercy...

    On Saturday, New Hope Ministries and Fuckknuckle Pastor Ray Chavez were providing a funeral service for Vanessa Collier. When the unthinkable happened.

    Hundreds of Vanessa Collier's friends and family gathered Saturday at New Hope Ministries, sitting before an open casket that held the woman they loved, when suddenly the minister overseeing her funeral stopped the service.​

    For most people, stopping a funeral service is usually only acceptable if there is a fire, the person in the casket sits up and is obviously alive, a major earthquake, gas leak, vehicle crashes into the Church, etc.. In short, it's usually a pretty big thing that would result in a funeral service stopping mid way.

    Unfortunately, none of those scenarios presented themselves during the funeral service of Mrs Collier. Oh no. There was a special reason that Fuckknuckle Pastor Ray Chavez stopped that funeral mid way.

    The memorial could not continue, Pastor Ray Chavez said, as long as pictures of Collier with the love of her life, the spouse she shared two children with, were to be displayed.

    Chavez said there could be no images of Collier with her wife, Christina. There could be no indication that Collier was gay
    I wonder if this is where the "hands of mercy" come into play.

    Yes, that's right. Fuckknuckle Pastor Ray Chavez stopped the funeral service, 15 or so minutes in, because the deceased was a lesbian and her wife and their children were in the Church and as is often the case, photos of the deceased with their loved ones are often on display during funeral services..

    As you can imagine, the hundreds of people who had turned out for the funeral, her friends and family, were outraged. And understandably so. This is the lowest of the low.

    Outraged, those who loved Collier, 33, picked up programs, flowers and eventually the dead woman's casket itself, moving the service to a mortuary that — thankfully, they say — happened to be across the street.

    "It was humiliating," said Victoria Quintana, Collier's longtime friend. "It was devastating."

    Friends and family say that Fuckknuckle Pastor Ray Chavez had held prayer services for the deceased Collier, along with photos of her wife and their children. He knew she was gay. At no time did he tell them he could not or would not perform the ceremony. Instead, he chose to advise them of that right in the middle of her funeral service, citing that Collier lived an alternative lifestyle. The result was a humiliating and horrific event for Colliers loved ones..

    Oh, and just to make it that little bit worse. Fuckknuckle Pastor Ray Chavez has refused to reimburse the family for the funeral.

  8. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    (Insert Phallic Joke Here)

    This is what we might describe as a strange controversy of such nature that we ought not be surprised at the idea that it comes straight out of Mississippi. Laura Conaway↱ of msnbc explains:

    You know your home state has rolled forward a good bit when some of the high school kids want to form a gay club. That's the news today where I grew up, in Rankin County, Mississippi.

    Their elders, on the other hand, don't sound so welcoming. When the idea of a club for gay students came up at a school board meeting last night, superintendent Lynn Weathersby suggested that the best way to curb clubs they "don't want to endorse and don't want" is to make the kids first get permission from their parents. From the Jackson Clarion-Ledger's report on the new policy:

    "There has been a group wanting to form a gay club. I talked to (board attorney) Freddie and several administrators about what we could legally do to limit organizations like that on campus that we don't want to endorse and don't want," Weathersby said ....

    Weathersby said after talking to the the board attorney and administrators, he found that the best strategy for limiting organizations is by requiring parents to sign a consent form to allow their students to participate in the club.

    At this point, you might be wondering just what makes this a controversy. After all, permission slips are nothing new to most parents; if my daughter wants to join the chess, robotics, or art clubs, she needs parental approval. This is no different from when I was in school.

    Then again, we're not in Mississippi. Conaway continues with a late-day update:

    According to an updated report from the Clarion-Ledger, the superintendent says all clubs will now need parental permission, not just the gay ones that "they don't want to endorse and don't want" and that sparked the policy change.

    Oh. I see. Well, there's the controversy then.

    And, yeah, the solution was so obvious that even the nuts in Mississippi could figure it out.

    † † †​

    Speaking of nuts, we might wonder at what's going on in that wonderland known colloquially as "America's Wang"↱, but most of us regularly simply call "Florida".

    Perhaps the best way to preface this is to recall the time an Oklahoma legislator, Rep. Mike Turner (R-Edmond), proposed that the Sooner State should stop allowing any marriages at all; if they couldn't stop gay marriage, they should just stop marrying anyone under state law.

    I know, sounds hilarious, doesn't it? What's that? You don't remember? It was just last year↑.

    This year, as the so-called Sunshine State faces the inevitability of (gasp!) gay marriage, three counties have decided to cancel all courthouse weddings in hopes of ... er ... um ... ah ... right. In hopes of something.

    Mark Joseph Stern↱ of Slate brings us that news:

    On New Year's Day, a federal judge ruled that all county clerks in Florida should begin to issue marriage licenses to gay couples starting Jan. 6. This order did not sit well with those clerks whose sincere religious principles require them to hate gay people. But since these clerks have no religious right to refuse same-sex couples marriage licenses, they've found a new way to express their antipathy toward gay Floridians. Traditionally, clerks have performed courthouse weddings for couples who request them. Now, rather than risk having to perform such ceremonies for gay couples, a group of Florida clerks have ended courthouse weddings for everyone.

    Because these clerks still have a legal duty to grant marriage licenses to gay couples, this move won't have any serious practical effects. Rather, it's one final opportunity for anti-gay clerks to degrade same-sex couples—on what should be the happiest day of their lives. Duval County Clerk of Courts Ronnie Fussell, who championed canceling courthouse weddings, told the Florida Times-Union that he believes gay people should be legally forbidden from getting married and that performing a same-sex wedding ceremony "would go against my beliefs." Accordingly, he decided to end all courthouse weddings for all couples, "so that there wouldn't be any discrimination."

    Strangely, Oklahoma comes up in this story, too, though not for the Turner proposal. Rather, as Stern explains, for Governor Mary Fallin (R):

    We've seen this kind of petty retaliation before. In 2013, the Pentagon—spurred by a presidential decree that itself arose from a Supreme Court ruling—issued a directive requiring all states to provide equal benefits to married same-sex couples in the National Guard. Oklahoma Gov. Mary Fallin refused, citing a state law forbidding the recognition of same-sex marriages. The Pentagon pushed back, politely noting that federal law trumps state law. In response, Fallin chose to drop marriage benefits for all National Guard couples, gay or straight, just to avoid granting those benefits to gay couples. Fallin borrowed this tactic from Catholic Charities, a social services organization that has consistently ended all adoption services rather than comply with state laws compelling them to adopt out children to gay couples.

    These people are sick jokes. Stern asserts that, "It would be repulsive if it weren't so overwhelmingly pathetic, so childish and small-minded and uncharitable." I disagree. The reasons he listed are exactly why this sort of thing is repulsive.

    These county officials are not proper public servants. They're examples of the reason why so many people think Florida is a phallic joke.


    Conaway, Laura. "Mississippi school to kids: Want to be gay? Ask your parents". msnbc. 14 January 2015. 14 January 2015.

    Stern, Mark Joseph. "Florida Clerks Cancel All Courthouse Weddings to Avoid Performing Gay Ceremonies". Slate. 2 January 2015. 14 January 2015.

    See Also:

    Wikiquote. "The Simpsons/Season 11". (n.d.) 14 January 2015.

    Royals, Kate. "Possible gay club prompts change in Rankin school policy". The Clarion-Ledger. 14 January 2015. 14 January 2015.
  9. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

    So how will the Supreme Court rule on gay marriage? Here's a look at the swing voter judges and why there's hope liberals will win on this:

    "With the federal right to same-sex marriage almost certain to have four votes, the decision, as always, is likely to come down to the country’s most powerful judge, Anthony Kennedy. On its face, this is good news for liberals. Kennedy has a long history of sympathy for gay and lesbian rights — it was one reason conservatives distrusted him when Ronald Reagan gave him the nod. Kennedy has also written landmark opinions striking down anti-LBGT state initiatives, “sodomy” laws, and key parts of the Defense of Marriage Act. If Kennedy were to side with his typical conservative allies on this issue, it would be unprecedented.

    That doesn’t necessarily make Kennedy a mortal lock for advocates of same-sex marriage. Making gay marriage legal in all 50 states would have an impact that goes well beyond, say, striking down rarely enforced bans on oral and anal sex. This case is somewhat unchartered waters. But still, it’s hard to imagine the 78-year-old Kennedy wanting his legacy to be defined by writing the Plessy v. Ferguson of gay and lesbian rights.

    The Wild Card The vote of Chief Justice John Roberts is the hardest to pin down. It’s also probably beside the point. The Supreme Court’s 2012 decision upholding much of the Affordable Care Act is the only time he’s joined the four liberals in a 5-4 opinion, and given that Kennedy is far more liberal on LBGT rights than he is on federalism and economics, it’s impossible to imagine a scenario in which Roberts votes to uphold a right to same-sex marriage and Kennedy doesn’t.

    All things being equal, one would expect Roberts to join with his natural allies Scalia, Thomas, and Alito. Brianne Gorod and Judith E. Schaeffer make an interesting argument that Roberts should be considered highly likely to be a sixth vote to legalize same-sex marriage. I’m not entirely convinced, but either way I don’t think his vote will matter.

    Speaking of wild cards: when the Supreme Court agreed to take the case its order asked the parties to address not only whether states are required “to license a marriage between two people of the same sex,” but also whether “the Fourteenth Amendment requires a state to recognize a marriage between two people of the same sex when their marriage was lawfully licensed and performed out-of-state.” I agree with the legal scholar Michael Dorf that it’s probably unwise to read too much into this. Still, there’s an outside chance that Kennedy and Roberts could compromise by reading the Constitution as requiring states to recognize valid same-sex marriages, but not that they have to license their own. The effects of such a ruling would be similar to a more sweeping affirmation of gay marriage, but would place a burden on poor couples in some states who would have to travel across state lines to become legally married.

    Overall, advocates of same-sex marriage rights have good reason to be optimistic. But as fans of the Green Bay Packers will tell you, it’s unwise to celebrate prematurely."===
  10. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

  11. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    AFA Fires Bryan Fischer
    Yes, really ... sort of.

    That was unexpected.

    Rachel Maddow↱ broke the news tonight on her msnbc show; the thirteen and a half minute segment is an enjoyable and enlightening thirteen and a half minutes, but let us go with Josh Feldman↱ of Mediaite, because it's easier to quote:

    The American Family Association has officially fired notorious evangelist Bryan Fischer after a controversy involving the RNC and Israel. Fischer is notorious for having some––well, let's not sugarcoat it––crazy views on gays, "homofascists," more crazy views on gays, and… yeah, basically a lot of gay stuff.

    Fischer is so out there, he concocted some insane conspiracy theory last year that the only reason Shepard Smith wasn't freaking out about Ebola is because he wants to support President Obama's big government gay agenda.

    At issue this time is an RNC trip to Israel that was apparently being paid for by the American Family Association, of which Fischer is the director of issues analysis.

    Feldman updated his post to note that the AFA has fired Fischer as a spokesman, but apparently is still retaining his radio show.

    The whole story is strange, though. The basic background is that the AFA is sponsoring an expenses-paid trip to Israel for sixty members of the Republican National Committee. This has been known for a while, at least, but things took a turn this week, as Debra Nussbaum Cohen↱ reported for Haaretz under the headline, "U.S. NGO: 'Hate group' funding Republican National Commmittee Trip to Israel":

    The trip is being organized by the American Renewal Project, an endeavor housed in and financed by the American Family Association, a conservative Christian group in Tupelo, Mississippi. The AFA is described as a "hate group” and "extremist group” by the SPLC, an Alabama-based civil rights nonprofit, because of statements it made that are deemed anti-LGBTQ, anti-Latino and anti-black, and which suggest that the United States is a country for Christians only.

    “The AFA has an extensive track record of bigotry and hate,” SPLC president and CEO Richard Cohen wrote in a letter to each member of the RNC, urging them not to go on the free trip.

    Bryan Fischer, the AFA’s director of issue analysis, has said that black people “rut like rabbits.” Moreover, in a September essay, he wrote: “We are a Christian nation and not a Jewish or Muslim one.” On a video segment on MSNBC’s "Rachel Maddow Show" last Friday, Fischer was seen blasting gay activists as “jack-booted homo-fascist thugs,” and depicting Islam as “an Ebola virus that is lethal and deadly.”

    According to Maddow, and as Feldman reports, AFA President Tim Wildmon cited Fischer's remarks about Hitler and homosexuality.

    Which is, all in all, one of those proverbial "things that make you go, hmmm".

    That is to say, we might consider that the AFA is planning a massive political trip to Israel, and their spokesman has said, publicly and repeatedly, that Jews are not entitled to First Amendment rights in the United States.

    So they fire him for offensive remarks about homosexuals.

    And it's true that Israel, as a socety, can be a sensitive about Hitler rhetoric; it is also true that we don't really need to wonder why. But we hear the government and many of the nation's citizens complaining of hating Jews if one suggests that the nation of Israel has no right to arbitrarily murder, kidnap, deprive, and displace Palestinians. One might, as such, wonder how Israelis or their government feel about the proposition that Jews should not be allowed the right to worship in the U.S.

    Yet the reason given for Bryan Fischer's dismissal as a spokesman―but not, apparently, as a radio host who helps raise funds for the organization―has to do with mean things he says about homosexuals; "We reject that", Wildmon explained.

    Well, at least they reject that now. It's not like this is a new pitch; he's been on about this for at least six years↱. And apparently AFA just found out about it.

    Or perhaps they decided they needed to do something, and between pumping Scott Lively's excrement and arguing that Jews have no rights under the First Amendment, the group decided to go with the Nazi bit because they can easily reject it.

    Which could make for a very interesting conversation between Israelis and RNC Chairman Reince Priebus: "So, you know, why did you decide to come to Israel on the tab of an organization that hates Jews?"

    And why would the anti-Semitic AFA want to go to Israel in the first place?

    (Hint: It's called Premillennial Dispensationalism, or, as Bill Maher summarized over a decade ago, "when Jesus comes back, the Jews have a part to play, which is, of course, to die".)

    This could get interesting.

    Meanwhile, the AFA has chosen to cite Fischer's homophobia as the reason for his sudden dismissal.

    In the last couple years, gays have been blazing their way up the ladder of social and political respectability; we've already cut in line in front of women, but what I can't figure out is whether we just cut in line in front of Jews, or if we had already passed them by.


    Maddow, Rachel. "American Family Association fires Bryan Fischer ahead of RNC trip to Israel". The Rachel Maddow Show. msnbc, New York. 28 January 2015. Television. 29 January 2015.

    Feldman, Josh. "American Family Association Evangelist Bryan Fischer Has Been Fired, Maddow Reports". Mediaite. 28 January 2015. 29 January 2015.

    Nussbaum Cohen, Debra. "U.S. NGO: 'Hate group' funding Republican National Committee trip to Israel". Haaretz. 27 January 2015. 29 January 2015.

    Fischer, Bryan. "The truth about homosexuality and the Nazi Party". Renew America. 15 May 2008. 29 January 2015.
  12. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

    Glad to see that dolt go. Here's some quotes for those unfamiliar with his hateful drivel:

    On LGBT activists: "[T]hey're trying to present themselves as these innocent little victims, helpless and hapless, being picked on across the fruited plain. And they're not. They are bullies. They are intolerant, they are vicious, they are mean, and they are after people of faith. There's no 'live and let live' with the bullies at Big Gay."

    #On Chick fil-A: "I am pointing out specifically that the bullies at Big Gay are coming after Chick-fil-A. They're trying to take them out, they're trying to obliterate them, they're trying to go Ahmadinejad on Chick-fil-A, they want them wiped off the face of the map."

    #On Welfare: "Welfare has destroyed the African American family by telling young black women that husbands and fathers are unnecessary and obsolete. ... We have incentivized fornication rather than marriage, and it's no wonder we are now awash in the disastrous social consequences of people who rut like rabbits."

    #On Families: "I think that ordinary Americans are getting fed up with having the homosexual agenda shoved down their throats when they're watching TV with their families. ... This is about propaganda for a sexually deviant lifestyle."

    #On Love: "We should discriminate against this kind of behavior not because we hate people but because we love them. We do not want to see them destroyed by their sexual choices, and we don't want to see others destroyed through the diseases that are transmitted to them in unnatural sexual acts."

    #On Hitler: "Homosexuality gave us Adolph Hitler, and homosexuals in the military gave us the Brown Shirts, the Nazi war machine and six million dead Jews."

    #On Christians: "The United States was founded by Christians, for Christians, and on the foundation of Christianity. Of this there can be no historical doubt. This truth is reflected in our First Amendment, which, according to historian and long-serving associate Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story, was not about religion in general but specifically about the religion of Christianity."

    #On Islam: "If curtailing Islamic immigration is necessary to secure the United States, somebody has to be the first to call for it. Consider the call made. This is not Islamophobia, it is Islamo-realism. This is not about hatred for Muslims but love for America and a desire to protect her. And even if the accusation were true, which it is not, most of us would rather be called live Islamophobes than dead Americans."
  13. Bells Staff Member

    Hierarchy? What's that?

    Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore, in an 11th hour move to keep the weddings on hold, sent an order to state probate judges Sunday night telling them to refuse to issue the marriage licenses to gay couples. Moore argued that judges are not bound by the ruling of a federal judge that the gay marriage ban is unconstitutional.

    It was a dramatic return to defiance for Moore who was removed as chief justice in 2003 for refusing to obey a federal court order to remove a washing machine-sized Ten Commandments from the state judicial building. Critics lashed out that Moore had no authority to tell county probate judges to enforce a law that a federal judge already ruled unconstitutional.

    "This is a pathetic, last-ditch attempt at judicial fiat by an Alabama Supreme Court justice_a man who should respect the rule of law rather than advance his personal beliefs," said Sarah Warbelow, legal director of the Human Rights Campaign.

    Warbelow urged probate judges to issue the licenses in compliance with ruling of U.S. District Judge Callie Granade. Granade on Jan. 23 ruled that the state's statutory and constitutional bans on gay marriage were unconstitutional but put her order on hold until Feb. 9 to let the state prepare for the change.

    Moore said Granade had no authority to order the change and that Alabama courts could do as their judges saw fit until the U.S. Supreme Court ruled. Last week, Moore sent a letter urging probate judges to reject the licenses. The head of the judges' association on Friday predicted most would issue the licenses. Moore upped the ante Sunday night by sending the directive.

    "Effective immediately, no probate judge of the state of Alabama nor any agent or employee of any Alabama probate judge shall issue or recognize a marriage license that is inconsistent with (the Alabama Constitution)," Moore, who serves as head of the court system, wrote in the letter sent Sunday night.

    I take it he forgot that Federal trumps State in such matters?

    This is not the first time that Moore has faced controversy.

    Moore, a Republican of the prehistoric model, has a long history of dickish, showboating behavior: In a 2002 child custody case, he ruled against the mother solely because she was a lesbian, writing in his ruling that homosexuality is "an inherent evil" and criminal at that, "destructive to a basic building block of society _ the family." The following year he commissioned a statue of the Ten Commandments for the Albama Supreme Court building, then refused to remove it, for which an ethics panel suspended him. Ann Coulter declared him Man of the Year for that, praising him for not ceding to "ACLU bullying" or "liberals' make-believe law." Yes, Alabama, that most liberal of states.​

    Perhaps someone should take him to the side and explain to him that what he is doing is not how it works in that Federal trumps State and to take it upon himself to suggest judges act in a manner which is unconstitutional should raise a lot of eyebrows.
  14. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    All judges recite oaths of office pronouncing fidelity to the U.S. Constitution. Moore has abdicated his oath in the past, but the Alabama Chief Justice is elected, so the Heart of Dixie sent him back to the bench.

    And now? Well, Christian supremacism is what Roy Moore does.

    Almost 52 years ago Gov. George Wallace made his infamous stand in the schoolhouse door at the University of Alabama to block two black students from registering for classes.

    It was really all for show. Wallace knew he had no authority to stop the students. The federal courts had ruled that the time had come to integrate UA and to back up that order President John F. Kennedy federalized the Alabama National Guard to make sure the law was enforced and the peace maintained.

    Still Wallace continued. He got his moment. Cameras captured it for front pages across the nation. TV broadcast it around the world painting Alabama as an intolerant place.

    It is still an image we fight.


    As I noted elsewhere↱, there is a reason so many people consider "The South" a bad joke.

    And the Heart of Dixie? Well, Alabamans are sick and tired of Louisiana getting all the credit for that rancid reputation.


    Dean, Charles J. "Roy Moore standing in the courthouse door: Where have we seen this before?". Alabama Media Group. 9 February 2015. 9 February 2015.
  15. Bells Staff Member

    What's in a name..

    Kansas Gov. Sam Brownback (R) on Tuesday unilaterally rescinded rules that had protected state workers from discrimination based on gender identity and sexual orientation.

    Brownback said an anti-discrimination order issued in 2007 by then-Gov. Kathleen Sebelius (D), should have been done through legislation.

    “This Executive Order ensures that state employees enjoy the same civil rights as all Kansans without creating additional ‘protected classes’ as the previous order did,” Brownback said in a statement. “Any such expansion of ‘protected classes’ should be done by the legislature and not through unilateral action. The order also reaffirms our commitment to hiring, mentoring and recognizing veterans and individuals with disabilities.”

    Well, since they could not ban gay marriage, they have opted for another way to allow people to discriminate against anyone who is LGBT and works for the State.

    Thomas Witt, executive director of Equality Kansas, said the order would cause LGBT state employees to be seen differently at work.

    "If you work for the state, your measure of job performance is no longer the quality of your work, but rather who you love and go home to at the end of the day," Witt said in a statement.

    Without the protections, Bonney said that "paranoia will set in" for LGBT state employees.

    "If their bosses don't like gay folks, for instance, it'll be open season," Bonney said.
  16. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    But to the state's credit, the majority of its judges are granting marriage licenses to gay couples.

    At the other extreme, however, Alabama was the last state to repeal its law against intermarriage between Euro- and Afro-Americans. IIRC, this happened in this century. Of course the law could not be enforced because it conflicted with federal laws, but the state government and the citizens were happy to keep it on the books.

    The ghost of Governor Wallace is still out there, and we ignore it at our peril.
  17. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

  18. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    Wikipedia insists that Alabama was indeed the last holdout. The article on"Anti-miscegenation laws in the United States" says that its law was repealed in 2000.
  19. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Twinge & Glow

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    Detail of Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal, by Zach Weiner, 15 February 2015.

    I admit, I'm still at the point where seeing a gay couple used for a stock relationship joke still gives me that little tweak of proud amusement and a certain sensation of radiance, a comfort that cannot be explained. It's more something that you wouldn't notice except that it's unusual. And most of us are fortunate enough to know some context of the security and solidarity of normalcy.

    Gay normalization is still taking place, and apparently I am still entirely delighted to see it.

    Nonetheless, it's been a good run since Windsor and then Kitchen. Homosexuals have generally climbed the societal ladder, and it seems somewhere in there we passed both women and Jews in terms of acceptance, normalization, and human respect.

    And it's nice to get those things, except, of course, the point only begs other questions.

    So I would like to offer my homophobic neighbors a deal: Hurry up and get over it, and we can all move on to other things. Like, you know, I can go on to worry about things not pertaining to being gay, and you can go on with trying to figure out how to prove that women aren't human beings.

    You know, matters of priorities.

    Think about it this way: It's been such a good year for gay rights that President Obama has won inconceivable gains for our transgendered neighbors, and that is in addition to what the T in LGBT gained through the rest of the Gay Fray. So thank you, homophobic neighbors, for doing all this work and making gay rights happen with such impact that you find yourselves paralyzed as the president turns to the detail work of making sure we include as many of our queer neighbors as possible in the spectrum of human rights. So if you would please, please, please just move on with life, we can all worry about more important things than reading a gay cartoon couple doing the old shirt gag.


    Weiner, Zach. Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal. 15 February 2015. 15 February 2015.
  20. wellwisher Banned Banned

    • This content is unsuitable for sciforums. Members are asked to avoid bigotry and unsupported stereotyping of entire groups of people in society.
    Transgender is an example, where the mind (ego) is out of touch with the body, such that form and function, diverge, instead of integrate. Natural is designed to integrate body and mind or else selection will be jeopardized. The wild dog can't think it is a cat, or else it will play from a weaker hand, since its body does not go that way. Maybe this can be supported in human culture, but it will not work under natural conditions; short term.

    As a parallel example, if I thought I could fly like a bird, which some people do, but my body does not have wings, this would also be an example of form and function, diverging. My form does not have wings for flying, therefore my mind would be dissociated to the reality of my body.

    I suppose in a free market culture, if science could attach bionic wings, to satisfy the vision of my mind, so my presumed function could be match with an altered form, this would seen less divergent to the untrained eye. But this is still not natural, since it only happened due to artificial means; unnatural.

    Since there are no bird wing bionics around to alter my form, if I continued to maintain I was a flier, in a non-flier body, culture would put me in a padded room or drug me due to loss of reality. The social requirement would be that I need to come to terms with the parallel between my natural form and its natural function. I would need to accept the limits of my form, so there is inner/outer balance.

    The problem I have with all forms of transgender divergence, are these are dissociative states, between form and function. It is conceptually the same as the flier example, with the difference being these particular square pegs can fit into their diverged round holes, much easier than the non flier can fly. The contrast is less obvious. This smaller level of divergence, seems to fool the foolish into thinking this is natural. Natural does not dissociate form and function.

    I can accept any low level divergent choices, but I can't accept dissociation being pitched as natural, because this sends a message that unnatural and natural are relative.

    The person who overeats is in the same boat as the transgender and the flier. The dissociation may begin early in life and therefore appear like it is part of their natural inner development. But again, their form and function are diverging, but in ways that are even more subtle and not as striking as the flier. Divergence phenomena should be addressed rather than disguised, so its form is socially doctored to the needs of dissociation.

    The compulsive push for gay marriage instead of social unions, with all the same benefits, is designed to disguise the dissociative state of mind and body, by tricking the social mind not to see the dissociation. If we decided being over weight was the new alpha dog, we could socially disguise the dissociation of overeating. We should not be gaming the system, but rather natural should stand as a benchmark.
  21. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    What the hell is wrong with transgender that you homophobes have to insist that it is "unnatural"? This planet is already overpopulated by people who are "natural." The transgender community is doing us an enormous favor. We should be grateful.
  22. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

    Transgender people are products of nature. Therefore it is natural for them to be that way. And nature does not always follow function. Examples of useless vestigial organs and features abound.
  23. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Wasting Life: Bigotry Is Truly Crippling Humanity

    At the point your argument requires men and women be different species, there is no question about the sickeningly low character we are witnessing in your arguments.

    Stop denigrating yourself. Get over it and get on back to hating women. The rest of us will meet you over on that field, where we will proceed to trounce your sorry ass just like we did in the Gay Fray. Your only comfort is that the rhetorical beat-down will last longer, and there really isn't any reason the people who will thrash your brand of hatred into its atomic components should not enjoy the hell out of themselves while they do. Call it Fifty Shades of Wellwishing.

    But your sort of bigotry has lost. The Gay Fray is going to be officially over in the United States come June. And if you can't see that, it might be that your only company is Antonin Scalia.

    And now you're down to trying to separate men and women as different species in order to make your argument. Technically speaking, you're disqualified. Then again, there really is no such disqualification, so you will continue to rant on like a terminal psychiatric disease, and others will simply point to the mess you're making of yourself and remind that this is why we use toilets when we defecate.

    Someday our human species will be able to stand on its own two feet in this Universe. And your sector of humanity will, by necessity, be long extinct.

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