Discussion in 'Politics' started by WillNever, Dec 13, 2009.


Do you support the DREAM act?

  1. Yes

  2. No

  3. Not Sure

  1. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    and so we should punish the victims?

    Sure it shouldn't, but to late now.

    This has been what we have been doing for decades and it hasn't worked.

    We been hunting down illegals and shipping them back for decades, serious what more can we do, shoot them, imprison them, do you know how much that would cost, how amoral it would make us?

    True, strange isn't it, all the wall building, all the boarder patrols, all the arrests and yet the economy can do more be removing the jobs they are coming here for, gee sort of proof of what I'm saying.

    It would be a better thing if we also imprisoned people for hiring illegals. You can continue to hunt for illegals and deport them but if you don't get rid of jobs for them they will just keep coming back!

    Not really here are all the requirements to get in for the Dream Act:
    * Have proof of having arrived in the United States before age 16.
    * Have proof of residence in the United States for at least five consecutive years since their date of arrival, compliance with Selective Service.
    * Be between the ages of 12 and 29 at the time of bill enactment.
    * Have graduated from an American high school, obtained a GED, or have been admitted to an institution of higher education.
    * Be of "good moral character"
    * Requires anyone applying for the DREAM Act to show that he is likely to qualify in order to receive a stay of deportation while his application is pending.
    * Individuals would continue to be excluded if they have received a final order of deportation, have engaged in criminal activity, or present a national security or terrorist threat.
    And then they have to:
    * Submits biometric information.
    * Undergoes security and law-enforcement background checks.
    * Undergoes a medical examination.
    * Registers for the Selective Service.

    This makes it all very unlikely they could get in if they were arrest for being an illegal, more so for the parents they would have to leave the USA for 10 years before they could gain legal status through their citizenized child.
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  3. countezero Registered Senior Member

    The guilty party here is the parents. They are the ones who victimized their children with their decisions.

    What the government is doing is now is no different than what it does when it arrests a mother who deals drugs, and in doing so, separates her from the children. It is enforcing the law. Are the children suffering because of it? Yes, there are. But the source of that suffering is the parent.

    We cannot simply stop enforcing certain laws because they lead to the suffering of some children. That would mean a total breakdown in society.

    Steps should be taken to stop this from continuing to happen. But good luck with that. School systems cater to immigrant children in many communities and have no problem teaching them for years, regardless of their parents status. And on the whole, I don't have a problem with that (American kids are taught in overseas schools, too).

    My problem is that now some people are trying to say this should automatically lead to citizenship. That's just bullshit -- and it's not something you would see a European country even begin to consider.

    It's working better now than it ever has, because there is a political will to do it. But you still have some politicians who would rather let everyone in, give away social programs and pass crap like the DREAM Act. You also have powerful and well-funded lobbying groups trying to erase the entire idea of immigration. Thus, the country has a schizophrenic immigration policy. This is why I saw we need a new immigration policy. But good luck getting one that makes any sense.

    The wall has actually worked in the locations where it has been built.

    I agree, but this is not a violent crime. Penalties and raids are enough. And they are happening more frequently now. That's a start.

    I said if their parents were arrested. But look, the criteria you posted basically lets anyone who has been here, gone to school and graduated (or gotten a GED, which is a joke) stay, simply because they outfoxed law enforcement long enough. There are individual cases being trumpeted by the illegal community now about kids who should be allowed to stay when their parents have been shipped out.

    As for the parents, if you really think they will be kept out for 10 years when their child is a citizen, well, you're dreaming. The will visit and never leave, visit and get a Green Card or not go anywhere in the first place. Or the US simply wait until the fervor dies down and pass another law that shortens that process, arguing their kids are already here and isn't it MORAL to let them bring their folks back, etc. Again, this is death by a thousand cuts. Get your toe in the door, then your foot...
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  5. Giambattista sssssssssssssssssssssssss sssss Valued Senior Member

    Why are they supposed to join the military? The last thing we need is illegitimate foreign nationals populating the military.

    Illegals are already a manipulated voter base, I can only see putting them in military or law enforcement roles as ill-advisable.
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  7. countezero Registered Senior Member

    They serve in the military now. There's nothing wrong with it. Foreign nationals have long served in the military. It's a quick way to get citizenship, and I've no problem with it.
  8. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

    The DREAM is over, because is was not nearly mercenary enough to suit the present political climate, where much denial and xenophobia persists. U.S. society is still not prepared to confront our exploitation of immigrants, so an ignorance-based prohibition approach to a ubiquitous problem will persist, until there is a desire to face our inconsistencies and limitations in shutting out the world around us.
  9. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Being separated from a drug dealing mother probably is a benefit for the child, so I think the child would probably be happier with foster parents in that case. More so this scenario is non sequitur analogy as a child without a GED (ergo probably not a not a child) or any other of the requirements and hoops jumped that the Dream Act calls for, will be shipped off with her parents anyways.

    Depends on the country.

    What other countries have for immigration laws is their business I don't think we should care, but I will take you up on that and bet you their are "European" (why europe, something special about them on this topic?) countries with more liberal immigration laws than the USA.

    This is a statement of pure conjecture.

    I will admit its crap, but the opposite to what you seem to believe, read the bill, see all those requirements, figure out how few people would actually qualify! The bill is a feel good bill that does the equivalent to nothing!

    We need a whole lot of new things, I say revolt.

    Where it has been built indeed, think they can't find other ways in through a nearly 2000 mile long border? Think we can pay to have the whole thing walled off?

    Oh so we do the same thing we have been doing for decades, just a little more, yeah that will work

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    No we need laws like Arizona's business license suspension law, literally close down any business that found hiring illegals, that sound proper to me, you want to talk about punishing criminals how about the guy that hires criminals and rewards them for their crime, what do you want to come to him?

    yes, that right, we invested in them and its not their fault their parents smuggled them in. More so the requirements leave us with what, how many do you think meet every single one of those qualifications?

    If the parents want to have any chance of getting citizenship that is, said nothing about keeping them out.

    Oh please cry my a swimming pool with the slipper slope fallacy: Social Security did not lead to communism taking over the USA, gun registration did not lead to gun confiscation, and this bill (if its ever passed) will not lead to everyone and anyone being able to get citizenship.
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2010
  10. Giambattista sssssssssssssssssssssssss sssss Valued Senior Member

    Why do we need more people in the military? Because the United States needs to maintain it's foreign presence, to continue being the police force of the world?

    I guess for those who believe in an aggressive interventionist foreign policy, then even the staunchest right-wing critics of illegal immigration could find something to get them hard over a new pool of fresh blood.
  11. Pandaemoni Valued Senior Member

    Immigration is a boon for the U.S., and even illegal immigration is a boon for the U.S. Given that, our ridiculously strict limits in the number of immigrants make no sense whatsoever, save to sate certain irrational nativist tendencies.

    Still, even although illegal immigration creates a net gain for the U.S., there are those individuals who are themselves a net negative for society. This bill attempts to focus on the populations of illegals who are most likely to have a significant positive impact: long-time residents who came as children (and who are thus likely to be highly assimilated) who are either highly educated (in which case forcing them to leave would be moronic) or who have volunteered for military service (which encourages more military service, and which tends to leave them with a reasonably strong skill set).

    I can imagine being opposed to the DREAM Act on principle (the principle being "we need respect for the law, and illegal is illegal"), but if that principle is important, why do so many people drive as if the speed limit is *really* 5-10 mph higher than whatever is posted as being the limit? If we're going to oppose the DREAM Act, then I say we should support jail time for speeders. They are all lawbreakers...but speeders are more blameworthy than the children who were brought here illegally by their parents.
  12. keith1 Guest

    Making U.S. jobs for U.S citizens is a top priority for the U.S. legislatures time and attention.

    Land taxes pay for schools. If Mexico cannot afford it's schools, the U.S. should demand land in exchange for our services to it's citizens.
  13. WillNever Valued Senior Member

    College-educated people help create jobs as well. The DREAM act stipulates that to qualify, the immigrant child must eventually graduate from college.

    I think the military requirement is silly too, by the way. Do you think the bill would have been better without people being able to qualify by joining the military?
  14. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

    America should just ask Mexico to become its 52 state, that way it can have everything it needs and not have to send its citizens across any boarders to get what they need.
  15. keith1 Guest

    One cannot ask newly inducted Mexicans to fight in our military against their own people in Mexico, and that is what will need to happen to permanently resolve this issue. The removal of Mexican sovereignty.
  16. Giambattista sssssssssssssssssssssssss sssss Valued Senior Member

    So, what we need then is a fully integrated North American Union, where sovereign boundaries can be blurred, thus making Mexican nationals no longer exclusively citizens of that country, but citizens of a continental government as well???

    No thanks. We don't need another bureaucracy on top of what we already have further confusing and eroding our individual nation status.

    The best thing for Mexico is to get rid of their government, decriminalize at least marijuana, and stop funding the drug war, and become an individual sovereign nation interested in enriching and reforming itself, rather than relying on some transnational agreement where the common folk have almost no say in the goings on of that agreement.
  17. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

    But America has a LEGAL immigration policy, all they need do is fill out some forms and come on over. So why can't you understand that very simple way to immigrate to America as millions have done before and still are doing so today. It is the Illegal ones that hurt the LEGAL ones by flooding jobs that otherwise would have gone to LEGAL immigrants. Is that so hard to understand or is there more to your views than meets the eye, like owner of a business that hires ILLEGALS? :shrug:
  18. Pandaemoni Valued Senior Member

    Not exactly. Unless you are sponsored by a U.S. citizen who has a statutorily prescribed tie to you (like a U.S. spouse) or by a U.S. employer for whom you work, you typically either need to pay a lot of money or you need to be selected in an immigration lottery. If you are poor, not employed BY A U.S. employer before you arrive, not related to an American and not lucky enough to be selected in the lottery, then you are not allowed to immigrate.

    See, for example:

    It's certainly not as simple as filling out "some forms." I have known some people who couldn't even get their legitimate spouses through the process without them being rejected for various reasons.

    If it were just a matter of a few forms, a medical exam, a criminal background check and *presto* you're in, then I agree the Dream Act would hardly be needed.

    My ancestors immigrated as a time when the borders were open, and no law limited who could come. We would be better off with something closer to that.

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