The Death Tolls of Socialism And Capitalism

Discussion in 'History' started by RedStar, Jul 22, 2012.

  1. Grumpy Curmudgeon of Lucidity Valued Senior Member

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    The Marquis

    RedStar has a real problem knowing the difference between an economic theory and a political one. He doesn't even acknowledge that Communism(a political theory)is Socialist(the economic theory)or that Capitalism(economic)is not synonymous with Democracy(political). His fundamentalist Communist religion blinds him from any understanding of history or reality

    Grumpy

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  3. RedStar The Comrade! Registered Senior Member

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    No, it's actually you who has no knowledge of any Marxian theory and pretends like he does. Please don't insult me by insisting that I don't understand my own beliefs.

    What democracy? The USA was a democracy at home all the while it was supporting dictators and fighting brutal wars abroad. The same goes for all the major Western powers.

    It's your blind religious nationalism that prevents you from seeing the truth about capitalism, about what happens when wealth has the power.
     
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  5. Grumpy Curmudgeon of Lucidity Valued Senior Member

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    RedStar

    But you demonstrate complete ignorance of the difference with every post. Socialism and capitalism are two opposite theories having to do only with economics. Communism and Democracy are two opposite theories of governance. Liberalism and conservatism are two opposite views in political thought. You conflate them all constantly. So you do not have any kind of understanding of what you preach of your religion.

    All nations fight wars, even Communist ones. And America does try to promote democracy and the rights of people worldwide(with more or less success). America has been far better than the picture you try to paint, often appealed to to be the police force of the World(they sure helped save Europe from itself more than once, even aiding Communist Russia in it's fight with Nazism in the 40s). Bad as we are, we are better than most powerful nations throughout history in not abusing the power we have and that fact is something we can be proud of.

    Oh, I see the evils of capitalism, here and throughout the world. I have also seen the failure of socialism(as practiced in now defunct countries like the USSR). Our balance between the two ECONOMIC paradigms causes lots of problems and needs to be moved back toward socialism in our country, restraining the capitalists by making them fulfill the duty they owe to the society that allows them to be capitalistic. I gave 8 years and a few body parts to my country, so I have earned a right to criticize my country for it's excesses, and I do. I am far from blind or religious about my country, but as flawed as it is, it is still the example that people around the world aspire to achieve for themselves, it would be a better world(not perfect, but better)if all the world's people had the same say in their country's course as I have in America.

    Grumpy

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  7. Cavalier Knight of the Opinion Registered Senior Member

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    I think it's important to remember that when the U.S. took control of parts of Germany and Japan, post WWII, we left the Germans and the Japanese better off than we found them (and better off than they would have been had their governments won the war). When the USSR took control of its part of Germany, they had to build a wall and keep the East Germans from fleeing with barbed wire, armed guards and land mines as additional incentives to stay.

    It's possible that the East Germans were also better off than they would have been had the Nazis won the war, but they were definitely not as well off as they'd have been had the US, UK or France been given control of East Germany.
     
  8. arauca Banned Banned

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    4,564



    Man you piss me off to be so ignorant, My 2 uncles got shut to death my grandmother and grad father starved to death in Archangelsk ( Sibir) half of the town ended up in Siberia, were my aunt say they had many time to mix saw dust and cook to have a belly full . I had an other aunt which ended in Siberia in 1939 just because her husband was a watchman ( worker )..
    Do you know or read in your party paper as to why Ukraina welkomed the German .. because it was miserable under the Bolsheviks ,( but the German bastard were nit any better ) Thanks to the Ukrainian partisans the Bolsheviks were able to defend Stalingrad, Because German rail supply was bogged down in the Ukraina by the partisans, Tell me that the Ukrainian want to be under you so called socialist system .
    How old are you camarade red star ?
     
  9. RedStar The Comrade! Registered Senior Member

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    462
    That's cute. You learned a few definitions in school, did you?

    Communism is democratic. It's a sociopolitical idea that has at its foundation Marxist economics. If you've ever actually read works by Marx, or Ernesto Guevara, or V.I. Lenin, you will see that socialism is about alot more than just "economics"

    Do you even know what dialectal materialism is?

    Hold on...hold on...let me stop laughing...just long...enough...

    Right *sigh* try telling that to the victims of American imperialism

    While I will agree with you on WW2, even that war was promoted by many groups for the sake of loans and profit. Read Zinn's "A Peoples' History of the United States"
    Except, again, all the numerous times you did. I can provide a list if you'd like, although I already did that.

    Can you please elaborate on the failures? I'd like some concrete examples
    How romantic! Except, so many people around the world don't have those rights precisely because of American intervention. Are you forgetting Bolivia, Mexico, Cuba? Just like to ignore the ugly parts of American history, I see?

    And what's with this "let's just put a human face on capitalism" rubbish? No. Capitalism is inhuman in its very nature. I don't want to regulate and tax the aristocracy, I don't think there should be an aristocracy in the first place. That's the key point.

    Please watch this video, it's actually a funny and informative satire of anti-communist arguments =)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQGZ0A5t7Yk
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2012
  10. arauca Banned Banned

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    4,564
    Marx as a Jew he is not the originator sf socialism or communism , the idea existed during Roman time among Jews ( read about Essins ) and other example is when the early Christian made a commune were all member surrounded their possession to the oversights members and things were distributed to the members as they need.
     
  11. Xotica Everyday I’m Shufflin Registered Senior Member

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    Mario Sousa is little different than David Irving et. al.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial_of_the_Holodomor
     
  12. RedStar The Comrade! Registered Senior Member

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    Like I said, even if I concede, you still need to come up with 1 Billion more deaths to even come close to matching the death toll of capitalism.
     
  13. Xotica Everyday I’m Shufflin Registered Senior Member

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    And as I said, your equivalency campaign does nothing to remove communism from the bloody morass. But then again, it's a favorite tactic of Nazis and Communists.
     
  14. RedStar The Comrade! Registered Senior Member

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    The Nazis were capitalists.

    Don't try to equate an ideology calling for workers' liberation with an ideology of racial supremacy and genocide. And you basically admitted that capitalism is indeed bloody, so which is less bloody? 1 Billion vs 20 milliion?
     
  15. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

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    The effects of politics on population are of little consequence when compared to the effects of farming methods.

    See here:

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    The graph is a bit misleading, because it does not account for the introduction of technological advances.
    It's plain enough though.
    Can you even see the minor blips of WWI and WWII?
    You'll have to look closely.
     
  16. Grumpy Curmudgeon of Lucidity Valued Senior Member

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    1,876
    RedStar

    The Nazis were Fascists, an unholy alliance between government and capital for the exclusive benefit of them over the people. It has also been called Communism for big business. The Fascist used slave labor, secret police, gestapo and other brutal methods to control the population and workers were "payed" enough to survive as long as they were useful to the Fascists. Those less fortunate(the blind, ill and mentally challenged) were euthanized, it was only a small step to slaughter over 6 million Jews with industrial efficiencies(using their innate antisemitism to fool the people), the gold in their teeth, their hair and any serviceable clothing were just a bonus. Fascists were Capitalist like Communism were Socialist. Again you are conflating the political ideology with the economic one.

    Where the hell do you get that idiotic one billion number? I know by the smell where you pulled it from, but your idiocy has gone far enough. Put up or shut up.

    Oh, they try to claim that, but Putin was not elected by a majority, he stole the election just as our Republicans are trying to do here. No top down system can ever be called democratic.

    I've read both Marx and Lenin, neither were competent economists and their idealism and dictatorial attitude(Lenin less so)should have convinced any thinking person to not try their ideas. The laboratory of the world justifies that judgement. Communism always led to dictatorship, sloth and failure. It can only be maintained by force and fear(as in Korea)and has fallen of it's own weight, leaving only North Korea as the sole remaining Communist regime(a shining example of what NOT to do). Even Cuba is abandoning this non-functional ideology.

    Yes. It is a crapstorm of inane logic and confusion designed to disguise the idealism of Marxism in the sheep's clothing of materialism. The old saw "If you can't dazzle them with wit, bury them in BS." fits. Trickle Down economics is an equivalently idiotic meme, the idea that all money must first pass through the kidneys of the wealth so they can then produce a "Golden Shower" of largess onto the heads of the pe(e)ons. I call it Tinkle Down. Neither works in the real world.

    You've yet to show any evidence(besides your lying propaganda spiels)of any American Imperialism at all.

    There were many factions in the US, including many prominent supporters of Hitler. Charles Lindbergh and Henry Ford were pro Hitler before the war, and regretted it deeply when the Holocaust became known. Lindbergh was antisemitic(prejudice against Jews was rampant in the US at the time), Ford admired the industrial success of Hitler, not even seeing the horror of his social policy. And war profiteers are a permanent fixture in any political system, even Communism.

    All we have seen from you is total fabrication, severe ignorance and misunderstanding. All the instances of so-called Imperialism have been disinfected by exposure to historical fact. Try again and we will do the same thing, again.

    Every country in the world that were once Communist(except North Korea)are now a mix of Socialism and Capitalism. All of them are examples of the failure of Communism. The USSR-defunct, gone. Communist China-now experiencing the boom that a certain amount of capitalism brings. Vietnam-similar to China. The Baltic states-recovering from the deprivations of the failed Communist USSR. Any of these examples we could discuss in detail, but they all failed, miserably(especially miserable for the peons).

    And the correlary is that the most successful countries in terms of the good of the people are the Nordic states(Switzerland, Holland, the Netherlands, Denmark), they are all Socialist Democracies with a healthy dose of Capitalism. They take care of their social needs collectively, but they do not confiscate all the fruits of their labor(as Communism does do), giving incentive to improve with the expectation that they will enjoy the gains of their efforts(something Communism or purer forms of Socialism can not do). Going back to the "economics" of Marx/Lenin, this is the flaw that makes it so much hot air. Ownership by a Capitalist or by a near criminal, corrupt state official is the same thing to any worker, except that the Capitalist will make more money which could, theoretically at least, Tinkle Down on the workers. Capitalism is a economic tool, not an ideology.

    Bolivia-self governed. Cuba-self governed. Mexico-self governed(they just elected a new President all by themselves). Haven't forgot them, they are just not examples of Imperialism by America(despite your repeated lies). Whatever freedoms they do or do not have is solely their own fault, not ours.

    Capitalism is an economic tool, it has no ideology but greed. A little of it gives incentive to work hard and succeed, too much leads to Fascism. You can not put a human face on Capitalism, it has not one care about humans, it's all about money and wealth. Socialism is it's opposite, it's all about the people and their needs. But it leads to Communism, with power and position in the pecking order becoming the goal. Neither capitalism, nor socialism work when they are too dominate. A balance between the two extremes is required. And whether you want an aristocracy is irrelevant, you will have one. Whether it is the rich Capitalist pig in his Cadillac, or the powerful, corrupt apparatchik in his Zil, the scum always rises to the surface of the pond. It is human nature, hardwired into our DNA. No ideology is going to change that, the best we can do is balance the two extremes for best results, as the Scandinavians have proven so good at. They have shown that with well regulated stirring the scum does not poison the pond. I'm actually much more of a socialist than is the norm in the US today(where the industrialists have made socialism a bad word).

    And it demonstrates exactly the tactics you use against Capitalism. How ironic. It's like the mirror images that are Fascism(total state control in league with the industrialists) and Communism(total state control with the powerful apparatus replacing the industrialists, power replacing money(which is power)). Either ideology leads to the same result as far as the people are concerned.

    Grumpy

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  17. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

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    There is no way the United states could be responsible for killing 95 million Indians as there weren't anywhere near that number of Indians alive in the area that became the United states as of 1776 (if ever).

    The total Pre-Columbian population of the area that became the United States is estimated at between 1 and 18 million, and the population had declined dramatically due to disease long before 1776.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2012
  18. Repo Man Valued Senior Member

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    4,955
    Marx borrowed that from Hegel. "Hegel's philosophy is so odd that no one would have expected him to be able to get sane men to accept it, but he did. He set it out with so much obscurity that people thought it must be profound." - Bertrand Russell

    http://books.google.com/books?id=oE...theless, there were some who scoffed.&f=false
     
  19. Edward M. Grant Registered Member

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    Not true...

    Under Fascism they get better uniforms.
     
  20. kx000 Valued Senior Member

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    How about a global standard on the rate of penny, compared to the value of a good. What man is able to value all things blue, vs. orange? Banana, vs. Play Station 3 control.

    A barter system is very wild, and unfair. Standard of global goods now! One world.
     
  21. youreyes amorphous ocean Valued Senior Member

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    Says, ex-military anti-communist materialistic fanatic.
     
  22. Gerhard Kemmerer Banned Banned

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    Red Star,
    Your figures on western countries includes the wars created by the invasion of socialist regimes, so there has to be a sharing of those figures if not a correction of moving them over to where they belong.

    However, you have bought up some valuable points about the west/capitalism that flies in the face for many who think the US and European countries are righteous. These are a source of tremendous blood shed and oppression.

    Unfortunately, communism, which has gone global through a socialist nanny state mentality, is the bloodiest regime of all time. It surpasses the Papacy which held the record until the mid 1800's.

    Communism and Capitolism are the left and right arms of the same monster that everybody thought was dead.
     
  23. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    24,690
    You must be talking about the entire hemisphere, which had a population of 150-300M before the Christian occupation. That included the much higher population density of the Bronze Age civilizations of the Aztec and Inca. The tribes living north of the Rio Grande were still using Stone Age technology, although some had invented agriculture and progressed from the Paleolithic to the Neolithic.

    There's no way a Stone Age economy could support that many people in an area the size of the USA. The highest estimate I've ever seen of the pre-Columbian population of the Lower 48 was 18M, and I think that's preposterous. Other sources estimate as low as 1M. I'm sure the truth was somewhere in between.

    There are only 300M of us today!
     

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