The Counscious Defines Time

Discussion in 'Eastern Philosophy' started by TruthSeeker, Jan 11, 2003.

  1. orthogonal Registered Senior Member

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    579
    A4Ever wrote:
    You're simply in the wrong place, A4Ever. This is the philosophy forum. Here logical argumentation is a requirement, not an option. Discussions about Veda, Buddha, and Christianity belong in the religion forum.

    Truthseeker has appeared at our pony race riding a goat. We've tried to explain that goats have no place in pony races; yet he objects:
    In other words, since he knows more about goats he can prove to us that his goat is actually a pony:
    Philosophy is rightly concerned with arguments concerning the existence of a god (or any other entity, for that matter). Philosophers argue these issues in the same way they argue any other philosophical issue; by the use of logical argumentation. We don't rely on revelation, burning bushes, or mystical dreams. Philosophy is not, however, concerned with discussions about the nature of the gods; that is the domain of theology.

    Since philosophers are by their very nature, skeptical, a philosophy forum was perhaps the worst place Truthseeker might have chosen to post this thread. He's not made a scientific argument and he's not made a philosophical argument. To paraphrase the physicist, Wolfgang Pauli, "It isn't even right enough to be wrong." It's possible that Truthseeker has made an excellent theological argument, but I'm in no position to judge how his goat would run against other goats. I respectfully submit that he ought to take his goat over to the goat race and find out.

    Michael
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2003
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  3. wet1 Wanderer Registered Senior Member

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    Many claimed the same when arguing about how many angels could dance on the head of a pin. Another philosophical thought that never was decisively answered. (Though I question that it was philosophical in its nature.)
     
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  5. A4Ever Knows where his towel is Registered Senior Member

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    So Nietzsche, Schopenhauer and Kierkegaard were not philosophers? They did nothing but declare out of the blue.
     
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  7. Juliette Registered Senior Member

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    Posted by A4Ever:
    "So Nietzsche, Schopenhauer and Kierkegaard were not philosophers? They did nothing but declare out of the blue."

    Oh that is such total bullshit. I'm not a huge Nietzsche person, and Kierkegaard is over my head, but Schopenhauer presented arguments for his statements.

    Posted by Truthseeker:
    "I'm 18, and I don't call her "teen of darkness" because she is made of darkness, but because her ideas of her mind are as dark as burnt ashes... She worships herself and that is not healthy at all... We are nothing in this universe. Look at yourself. What you are? A second in this endless time, a grain of dust in this endless universe, a single breath of God's life. That's whe you are. that's what WE are. And yet, most of us worship ourselves..."

    Wait a second fuckhead, you're a year older and you call me a kid? You're a fucking Christian. I've probably had more men than you've had women - hell, I've probably had more women than you have!

    I worship the human, if I worship anything, because that's all I can see that's worth worshipping. Your idiotic religion helped make me into this self-lacerating, self-hating creature, and I intend to change that by learning my true worth.

    A second in the endless time? Well then, I'm the only IMPORTANT second.

    Fuck the Absurd.
     
  8. A4Ever Knows where his towel is Registered Senior Member

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    1,234
    Arguments are given by everyone who tries to sell you something, be it a vacuum cleaner or a philosophy.

    3 examples. You know of 1 and you call my saying bullshit?

    Insulting people will get you nowhere. Maybe you'll be famous for getting edited by Xev

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  9. Juliette Registered Senior Member

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    36
    A4Ever posted:
    "Arguments are given by everyone who tries to sell you something, be it a vacuum cleaner or a philosophy."

    Duh! Wow, you must be really smart.

    "3 examples. You know of 1 and you call my saying bullshit?"

    I disproved it with one. I'm not huge on Nietzsche 'cuz everything he says is just what I would say, but I know his work.

    "Insulting people will get you nowhere. Maybe you'll be famous for getting edited by Xev"

    Like, what, I'm supposed to be scared 'cuz the queen bitch is gonna edit my statements when some idiot comes whimpering to her? I don't change my behaviour for no one. This world never gave me shit and now its time for me to give it shit.
     
  10. A4Ever Knows where his towel is Registered Senior Member

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    1,234
    I meant that it is easy to find arguments for something you say. It's not the same thing as proving it.

    Guess I was not smart enough to make you understand what I meant

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    You didn't disprove anything. Schopenhauer had arguments for what he said. He could not prove it.

    Nietzsche declares the new and destroys the old. He gives no evidence. It is his point of view.

    If everything he says is something you would say, you must have a deep knowledge of history and the human psyche. O yes, and a natural gift for poetry.

    In order to live, we need air, water and some food. You need an additional thing: "attitude adjustment"

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  11. ndrs The Anti-Cthulhu Registered Senior Member

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    Yes.. I felt the same way when I read his stuff..

    Not necessarily. Some things by him come to us by intuition. He just proved it by human psyche and history.

    Attitude adjustment - AKA - Social conditioning
    Oh wait.. Juliette, are you not Xev's multi?

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  12. A4Ever Knows where his towel is Registered Senior Member

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    1,234
    SOME things as opposed to EVERYTHING.

    It's not the same thing. When a store clerk does not give you correct change, what's your first reaction?

    a) Yo DICKHEAD! Learn to count or get fucked
    b) excuse me sir, you gave me back this and it has to be this.

    Anyway, it's forum rules to play the ball and not the man. But you're right, it is not my duty to point it out. Gotta be more selective.


    Xev's mult? That would be funny

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  13. Absurd Registered Member

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    I take offense. :bugeye:
     
  14. orthogonal Registered Senior Member

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    579
    What is Philosophy?

    Hello A4Ever,
    Philosophy is no more the history of philosophy than psychiatry is the history of psychiatry. Sigmund Freud, the father of psychoanalysis, developed many of his theories while under the influence of cocaine. Of the famous French psychoanalyst, Jacques Lacan, Raymond Tallis has written in his, "The Shrink From Hell":

    "The brilliant ethnologist Lucien Sebag killed himself at 32 after having been discharged abruptly from treatment—because Lacan wanted to sleep with Sebag’s teenage daughter."

    Modern psychoanalysis is distinct from its historical origins. There is no doubt that Freud and Lacan were psychoanalysts, but their methods have since come under intense scrutiny. So it is with modern philosophy.

    Philosophy once encompassed the study of everything. You might recall that until the later part of nineteenth century physics was still known as natural philosophy. One by one, the various fields of specialized study dropped away. What's left? Or asked in another way, "What is philosophy?" I'm afraid that question is itself a philosophical question. It's perhaps easier to say what philosophy is not. Philosophy is not poetry, it's not navel-gazing, spirituality, or mere opinions. In his book, The View From Nowhere, Thomas Nagel wrote:

    "There is a persistent temptation to turn philosophy into something less difficult and more shallow than it is. It is an extremely difficult subject...I do not feel equal to the problems treated in this book. They seem to require an order of intelligence different from mine."

    These last two sentences, coming as they do from the world-class philosopher, Thomas Nagel, are rather sobering. The word "philosophy" has been so abused as to have almost lost its meaning. It is unfortunate that we all too often hear politicians, CEOs and Generals alike speaking of their "philosophy," as if philosophy were a plan for action.

    A contemporary professor of philosophy, Sandra LaFave, makes these distinctions about philosophy and the philosophical method:

    "Logical argumentation is the hallmark of philosophy. Philosophy is characteristically dialectical; it consists of reasoned arguments for philosophical views, as well as presentation and consideration of possible opposing arguments...Philosophers are certainly interested in comparative religion and social science, but philosophy is not exactly an empirical discipline; it is more "applied logic". It analyzes the arguments in support of belief; the analysis checks for ambiguity, inconsistency, invalidity and unsoundness of argument, as well as plausibility and consistency of logical consequences."

    Michael
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2003
  15. orthogonal Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    579
    Juliette wrote:
    Juliette, I've kept a journal for at least the past 30 years. I carry my journal with me wherever I go: up mountains and across oceans. I'd feel lost without my journal. In my journal I record my ideas, quotes from books, and bury my embarassing attempts at poetry. My past journals line my bookcase at home. Sometimes I refer to them, but mostly they collect dust. When I die they'll be tossed in a recycling bin.

    Now imagine that one day when I opened my journal I discovered some mysterious handwriting under my last entry. Imagine that this unknown entry had actually responded to my idea! Imagine that instead of simply recording my lonely ideas, this journal became a conduit for philosophical discussions. It would be exciting to write my ideas on a page, close the cover, and when I reopened the book there might be an answer, perhaps from someone half-way across the planet. Of course, what I'm describing is this philosophy forum. I still keep my private journal, but this interactive journal is vastly more enjoyable. I enter into philosophical discussions not so that I might convince someone to believe what I believe, but to refine my own ideas. It's wonderful to have A4Ever challenge my ideas. In responding to his challenge I'm forced to re-evaluate my own beliefs.

    You might think of our philosophical discussions as a game of chess. My post is my move. My "opponent" thinks about my post and then responds; that's his move. What should we think of a chess player who having gotten into a tight spot stood up to scream profanities at his or her opponent? Of course, philosophical discussion is not really like a game of chess. The outcome of a chess game determines who is the better chess player. What does an outcome of a philosophical argument prove; that someone is more at home in their word than is another? Nothing any of us say here is the ultimate truth. In fact, nearly everything I write ought to have a tiny question mark follow it. Again, to quote Thomas Nagel, but this time from his book, The Last Word:

    "The only way we can have any hope of advancing towards truth is to be continuously dissatisfied with our opinions, to be always on the lookout for objections, and to be prepared to change our theories whenever counter-evidence, counter-arguments, or better-supported alternatives present themselves."

    Juliette, I'd like to welcome you to this group. I'm truly sorry to hear that you've had a rough life. My "life so far" at your age was pretty rotten as well. It might be of comfort to you to know that at least in my case, my awful beginnings eventually blossomed into something of a one-man Ode to Joy. I'm terrible at giving advice, but there is one quote that I've long kept close to heart. Rainer Maria Rilke in his, Letters to a Young Poet wrote:

    If the world does not appear to be magical, "blame yourself; tell yourself that you are not poet enough to call forth its riches."

    Best Wishes,
    Michael
     
  16. A4Ever Knows where his towel is Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,234
    Orthogonal,

    thanks for your posts. Your anology with your journal is one I'll keep in mind.

    In all the philosophy courses I had so far during my education, the focus was on history. In ethics from Aristoteles to Levinas. In fundamental philosophy from Plato to Sartre.

    It is true that this is 'history of philosophy' and not actual philosophy. It is good to move the focus to further development.

    The 'philosophers' of our history did not follow logic. They often declared, based on their feelings, or merely reacted against something they didn't like.

    With our view on this history and the awareness of the importance of logic, we should indeed try to do better.

    Many people lost their sense of meaning somewhere in the collapse of organised religion. There is nothing much left to cling to. This explains the popularity of new age. It is the bricolage of bits and pieces that lie shattered around us.

    'It might be true' takes the place of sound logic, but that is because many of the ideas are so appealing. Wouldn't you like to be a multi dimensional being equaling God in creative power?

    Because we look for something to hold on to, and not necessarily for the truth, the standard of what people call philosophy is lowered.

    I think that's the instinct of survival. We feel threatened very quickly. It's good to be aware of this.

    I always hope to arrive rather soon to get the thinking part over with

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    I can see an 90 year old man who still has the same idea right before me.

    Philosophy never ends.

    Greetings,

    A4Ever.
     
  17. EvilPoet I am what I am Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,007
    Time, Consciousness, and Perception

    "Time is nature's way to keep everything from happening all at once."
    -Prof. John Wheeler

    "Consciousness is the perception of what passes in a man’s own
    mind. Can another man perceive that I am conscious of any thing,
    when I perceive it not myself? No man’s knowledge here can go
    beyond his experience." -John Locke

    "An hour sitting with a pretty girl on a park bench passes like a
    minute, but a minute sitting on a hot stove seems like an hour."
    -Albert Einstein

    Time and the Observer
     
  18. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,844
    In a sense, who's to say we aren't? Heh, okay, but depending on how you look at it.. I'd swear there's a point.

    Oh, and I've enjoyed your posts. Nice.
     
  19. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,844
    Re: Time, Consciousness, and Perception

    your link exploded my brain! (thanks, I liked it)
     
  20. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    6,221
    Why do you think that time cannot be measured? Physics has a very precise definition of time and there are all sorts of ways to measure it.
     
  21. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    15,162
    Cris,
    It is interesting to see what some people call "truth"...:bugeye:
     
  22. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    15,162
    Julliete,

    Self Self Self Self Self Self Self Self Self Self Self Self Self Self Self Self Self Self Self Self Self Self Self Self Self Self Self Self Self Self Self Self Self Self Self Self Self Self Self Self Self Self Self Self Self...
    That's ALL that you think about...
     
  23. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,162
    Orthogonal,

    Now you are being silly...
    You realize that in the whole text I wrote only 3 lines about God...? And then all this discussion... why? What is really the problem? Why everyone is so scared? Sometimes I really can't understand that...

    The text is about philosophy. In the end I talk about the high probability that a supraconscious exists and I used logic to prove it. Wheter you call this supraconscious God or singularity is your problem, not mine. :bugeye:
     

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