The Counscious Defines Time

Discussion in 'Eastern Philosophy' started by TruthSeeker, Jan 11, 2003.

  1. matnay Registered Senior Member

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    189
    Truthseeker,

    It's hard to believe that I'm not the only one here that sees that time is an illusion...
    Have you read my film-frame example...? I think it is somewhere around this thread...


    I didn't see it. I just skimmed over this thread though. But I did see something you wrote that I would like to add to. This may be where our opinions differ...

    Meanwhile, I theorically proved that the existance of God is possible. However, He certainly is above time and not influenced by it.

    I don't necessarily disagree with this statment. But, if God exists, even he would be constrained by a higher-dimensional passage of time, while our timeline would appear as a static, unchanging system.

    Or maybe you already adressed this issue.
     
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  3. wet1 Wanderer Registered Senior Member

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    The bible is only one book of many that are written supporting religions. How can you say this one and not the other one? No matter what reference you choose you are singling millions (no billions) as having the wrong religion. A narrow point of view in my opinion. As such it makes your pov rather limited and suspect because of it.

    That is the mark of one who will truely learn and will be educated in the truest form of the word. Unforetunately we find many hold to cherished ideas and refuse to go forward from there. To look into religion forum is to see this in action. Rare are those willing to listen, try to seperate the chaff from the kernal, and treasure the kernal for what it is.

    Human experience that is learned in life affects us all. I am no different in that than the next.

    Still to bring something like "supraconscious" into the conversation is simular to trying to introduce magic to a group of scientists. Everyone in the group will want to understand and take apart the workings to do so. Taking apart the workings is where the difficulty will arise. Hard to test something like this as it is not tangible. Thought experiments, while useful in gaining directions, is not proof. Rarely do those experiments hold up in reality when they can be converted to the physical world.
     
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  5. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    matnay,

    How can God be subjected to His own creation? If He was in another higher dimension, He would still be subjected to it, wouldn't He. I used to think as you, but when I though better about it it seems much more reasonable not to impose limits to the creator of the universe...

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  7. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    wet1,

    My point of view is not directly based on the Bible. First, I tried to get a point of view which would not limit me in my own perspective, then when I found the Bible I found out that the things I discovered without perspective are the ones that are written in the Bible. It is like if the author of the Bible weren't human (hey... He is not human...

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    )...

    I already pondered all that you did. I already passed through all this. I know what you and others are talking about. I understand and reply trying to explain what is wrong with your idea. Then you reply saying that I'm not right, and your argument is not right. I explain it as clear as I can. Doesn't work still... Really, I'm doing my best to make it clear...

    If you never experienced religion, how can you judge it?

    Do my experiment, then try to get more aware. Do things that make your time seem more and more slow. As you do those things, ponder what would happen if the time would get so slow that it would eventually stop. What would happen with your conscioussness? Ask yourself.
     
  8. matnay Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    189
    Truthseeker,

    How can God be subjected to His own creation? If He was in another higher dimension, He would still be subjected to it, wouldn't He. I used to think as you, but when I though better about it it seems much more reasonable not to impose limits to the creator of the universe...

    I believe that the Universe is infinite, and that God(if he exists) is a finite product of it. Perhapes God created our 'localized' universe(with a lowercase "u"). My fundamental idea of infinite dimension does not stop at the God level. That's what makes it infinite. If you think that God exists outside the boundries of our local universe, that's fine. But when I refer to the Universe, I am refering to all of existance, all possibilities, god, everything.
     
  9. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    And if God is everything? And if God=infinite? If God is everywhere?
     
  10. matnay Registered Senior Member

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    189
    Truthseeker,

    And if God is everything? And if God=infinite? If God is everywhere?

    If "God is everything", then what would that make Him? Nothing at all. It really doesn't make sense to say that God is everything. Are you speaking figuratively?

    If "God equals infinite", then what would that make Him? Nothing at all. It really doesn't make sense to say that God is infinite. Are you speaking figuratively?

    If "God is everywhere", then what would that make Him? Nothing at all. It really doesn't make sense to say that God is everywhere. Are you speaking figuratively?
     
  11. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    No. Have you read my first post?
     
  12. matnay Registered Senior Member

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    189
    Yes, I read your first post. I don't agree with it though. I mean, I do agree with time being relative to one's state of mind. That doesn't have much to do with my idea of time though.

    Anyway, i don't see what that first post has to do with what you wrote:

    And if God is everything? And if God=infinite? If God is everywhere?

    I don't understand these sentences. Please explain.
     
  13. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    By definition, God is a supreme conscioussness, He is conscious of everything. So, if He is aware of everything, then time for Him doesn't exist. Time for Him is completly stoped. He sees it as if it were frames in a movie. He sees all of it. So He is beyond time.

    Time is an illusion. Awareness defines time. Lack of awareness time passes fast. Abundance of awareness time passes slow. If you use this reasoning, to make the time stop you just need to have complete awareness (hopefully you already got this). God fills in right there. God has complete awareness, so time doesn't even exist for Him (since time is stopped, it is not a variable at all...).
     
  14. matnay Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    189
    Truthseeker,

    I understand your reasoning, but that does not make it reasonable.

    Lack of awareness time passes fast

    Wrong. Time simply doesn't exist. No longer applicable. You can't apply a property(speed) to something that doesn't exist.

    Abundance of awareness time passes slow.

    Maybe superficially within the human mind. But how can you extend this property to the minds of higher beings?

    God has complete awareness, so time doesn't even exist for Him

    Awareness is dependent on function(ie. function of the brain). Function is dependent on movement(movement of the brain). Movement is dependent on time(brain must have time to think).
    So how can God be aware, if the illusion of time is not in effect for him?
     
  15. Claudea Registered Member

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    27
    So, in theory, by reaching a state of incredibly high concentration, we can reach a state of supraconsciousness? I can see how this would prove very difficult, because most people (at least to some degree) dislike activities that make time seem to slow down. It's why people take breaks when studying, or do things to try to keep themselves occupied when "watching the clock." hmmm, maybe it's that our brains have trouble handling intense concentration for extended periods of time.

    There was discussion elsewhere of reaching a state of "enlightenment." Many people were talking about this in reference to meditation, which, in my opinion, is a form of high concentration. Do you think becoming "enlightened" could be somewhere close to reaching "supraconscious?"

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    Last edited: Jan 13, 2003
  16. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    truthseeker,

    I think it is probably overdue for you to try spelling these terms correctly since they are vital to your arguments.

    But your argument primarily concerns awareness and perceptions. Being alert and aware of your surroundings is the mark of someone in touch with reality. The alternate is the daydreamer and unobservant, who is indeed largely unaware of the passage of time.

    Alarm clocks seem like unnecessary devices.

    I find the complete opposite. I think the difference between us is that I enjoy concentrating and you do not. It is not concentration or consciousness that is the issue but enjoyment.

    Those who do well at college and other academic pursuits tend to enjoy studying and delving into documents and books. But my observations of you on these forums tends to indicate the opposite. Your posts reflect not what you have read or studied but what you imagine the world to be like, and probably what you think the world is like. You appear more like my statement earlier - the dreamer and the unobservant. But that is just who you are and shouldn’t be seen as criticism. Many artists and fiction authors have very similar characteristics. You just haven’t found out quite yet how to focus those abilities. Trying to use them to explain the world will very likely end in great disappointment. The understanding and discovery of reality requires significant focus and concentration as well as insights and imagination.

    The clocks I see from time to time seem to do a pretty good job.

    The bulk of your opening post though is really just gibberish, sorry but you do need to study a bit more. Try reading more of the classical philosophers. Even millennia ago you will find that may of the concepts you are struggling with were known then. Science has certainly helped the more modern philosophers, but they still base many of their ideas on the ancients.
     
  17. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    Claudea,

    You KNOW how to connect things...

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  18. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    matnay,

    Only because something is an illusion it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. We are still subjected by time, no matter wheter it is an illusion or real.

    I'm not talking about minds. Minds are limited by time...

    "I am what I am"... what does that mean? I could probably even write a whole thread about the nature of God all based on this single sentence... "I am what I am" is in Hebrew "YHWH", which later created the "Jehovah"... But anyways... let's go back to subject...

    "I am what I am" defines God in a very broad way. Not going into details, but one of the things that it means is abscence of boundaries. You cannot define God at all. That's why I've said many times that He cannot be explained by rational ways (aka: logic). He is beyond logic. Our words reflect our boundaries. We have to cut information into pieces of information (words). Those pieces all together may for an idea. However, God doesn't work this way. He simply is. he doesn't divide Himself in pieces of information as we do. "I am what I am" defines everything. It also defines nothingness itself, as nothing is contained in everything. He is not dependent on anything. When I say He is aware, I'm defining Him, thus making Him smaller. I'm actually conscentrating on one single aspect of Him and trying to define Him rationally. So, in this sense, we cannot say He is aware. However, since He is a supraconscious being, He cannot be defined as aware, eventhough this limits our perspective towards Him. *sight... that's mind-bending...

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    Well, what I basicaly said is that time doesn't affect Him...
     
  19. Juliette Registered Senior Member

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    Posted by Truthseeker:
    ""I am what I am" defines God in a very broad way. Not going into details, but one of the things that it means is abscence of boundaries. You cannot define God at all. That's why I've said many times that He cannot be explained by rational ways (aka: logic). He is beyond logic. Our words reflect our boundaries. We have to cut information into pieces of information (words). Those pieces all together may for an idea. However, God doesn't work this way. He simply is. he doesn't divide Himself in pieces of information as we do. "I am what I am" defines everything. It also defines nothingness itself, as nothing is contained in everything. He is not dependent on anything. When I say He is aware, I'm defining Him, thus making Him smaller. I'm actually conscentrating on one single aspect of Him and trying to define Him rationally. So, in this sense, we cannot say He is aware. However, since He is a supraconscious being, He cannot be defined as aware, eventhough this limits our perspective towards Him. *sight... that's mind-bending..."

    Why does the moderator allow this nonsense? God is everything and nothing and God is the birds and the flowers and the trees and the jimson weed Truthseeker is smoking? This is Unitarian Universalism meets Surrealism.
     
  20. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    Cris,

    They are actually quite anoying...:bugeye:

    Enjoyment is your perception, but it is generally defined as I stated. If you say I don't enjoy reading, for example, well, then you don't know me at all!

    Yeah... you judge that I don't like concentration... You judge I don't like to study... It seems that you know me better than I do...

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    Time is measurable. Time itself is unmeasurable. You measure time by breaking it into pieces, but who said time is broken into pieces? That's how you perceive it. You are a conscious that defines time by using different small frames in the brain. YOu break it inot pieces and organizes it: "this is present, this is past, this is future". But know you that the present of today is the past of tomorrow!

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    I studied Plato and Socrates for quite a while when I was about 12 years old...

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    Surely, I would ask you kindly to observe that you are the only arrogant person in this whole thread. You came here and judged me by your own standarts, as if you were way better than me. Those who judge themselves and judge others comparing to themselves will certainly be the most arrogant people althout they themselves don't consciously realize it...

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    I hope you understand by the above paragraph that you are the only "philosopher", or "scientist" or "atheist" that called my ideas "gibberish"...:bugeye:
     
  21. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    Juliette,

    Define "everything" without even thinking of "nothing". Define "good" without even thinking of "bad". What is from the mind can be easily defined by the mind, but when you cross the boundaries of it, how can you define it? For the very concept of "empty" requires the concept of "full" to exist. But God...? He just IS!!

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  22. Juliette Registered Senior Member

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    Posted by Truthseeker:
    "I hope you understand by the above paragraph that you are the only "philosopher", or "scientist" or "atheist" that called my ideas "gibberish"..."

    Here's a Satanist calling your ideas gibberish.

    "Define "everything" without even thinking of "nothing". Define "good" without even thinking of "bad". What is from the mind can be easily defined by the mind, but when you cross the boundaries of it, how can you define it? For the very concept of "empty" requires the concept of "full" to exist. But God...? He just IS!! "

    God does not exist, thus He is not "just IS!!".
     
  23. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    I'll see that gibberish and raise you 'annoying and childish'.
     

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