The Christian Heaven?

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Ludofl3x, Aug 6, 2018.

  1. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Perhaps you could create a forum (or even start a thread) dedicated to a Musika vs 21stCenturyIconoclast slugfest. _That_ would be funny to watch; two completely inflexible extremists spending all day insulting each other. It might even keep them out of the more intelligent threads.
     
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  3. Slartibartfast Registered Member

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    But of course the question was posed to the particular type of person who actually believes that heaven exists and also believes that the obvious contradictions inherent in those beliefs are all true as well. eg a person who's entire family is burning for eternity can be deliriously happy in that knowledge.
     
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  5. Ludofl3x Registered Member

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    Appreciate the response. Preemptive apologies for the mechanical issues I'll have getting used to this board.


    So then you're of the belief that people who say "At least she'll get to see (insert pre-deceased relative here) are at the very least presumptuous, and at worst, wildly mischaracterizing heaven in the first place? I get what you're saying, so long as she's in heaven, she won't miss anyone, but that to me essentially means she's not who she was on earth, loving wife, loving mother, etc. She's now just some weird form of happiness, but without any point of reference. The only way this sounds like it'd work to me, where she's some disembodied spirit of bliss, is if she indeed remembers some sort of state where she was "less than" this. In other words, if she doesn't remember what used to make her happy, and doesn't remember how happy she was on earth, is 'happiness' even a meaningful word?

    This seems somewhat a denominational or doctrinal point to me. Granted you may have a lot more biblical knowledge than I do, but this isn't how heaven is pitched to the non-believer. Basically if you believe in Jesus, you get to be happy forever is the short form. It's a moot point, I agree, you're consistent here at any rate: non-Christians can't get into heaven. That's really the crux of this point. The point on Luke, as well, doesn't really appeal to the non-Christian, which is why it's not really discussed in any church I ever went to (Catholic). The rest of the stuff you wrote about how I'm engaging in make believe to make up a critique I deleted because it was too long, but suffice it to say I'm not the one who think I'm going to whatever it is you think you're going to in the sky after I die. I think we just die and that's it. Take issue with the wreck that is the Christian heaven with Christians, I was just asking how the stuff I was told as a kid ever made sense to anyone. I do appreciate the citations, though, at least it's nice to see someone who's done some work with their belief system!
     
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  7. Michael 345 Looking for Bali in Nov Valued Senior Member

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    What happens when a god fearing masochist Christian leads a exemplary life and makes it to heaven

    Finds it terribly boring and is unhappy?

    Can he request to go to hell to obtain his happiness?

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  8. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    That's why God invented complementary pairs like sadists and masochists.

    In Heaven, there's somebody just for you. If you're suicidal, there's a psychopathic killer with your name on it.
     
  9. Michael 345 Looking for Bali in Nov Valued Senior Member

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    I'm guessing here but psychopathic killers might be in short supply so suicidal guests may need to share

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  10. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Try it this way: One of the reasons I give the character of Jesus a little more credit, these days, than I used to, is that He apparently knows something Sufis also think they understand. I would try to explain it to you, but the one part of the explanation I do understand clearly is the part about why they don't just outright explain it. Or, maybe, in the moment, that doesn't help, either.

    But consider Michael 345's↑ (ahem!) problematic questions. Flip a coin: Heads, take his ignorance seriously. Tails, take his hatred seriously. It's one thing to set a low bar, as plenty of religious evangelists do, and, well, nearly the same to see an identifying atheistic evangelist demand one even lower.

    To the other, your argument is wandering both close to and far from its own point. That is, sure, you're grasping an important question, but you let people you already don't trust set the terms, so you're mucking around in a range you don't understand because neither do you trust the terms. It's a trap you've set for yourself, and nobody is surprised when folks actually fall in.

    If you can braid notions of oneness, retention of experience, and the release of earthly concerns, then you're even closer.

    Consider, though, to the other, the dying person, the dignity we hope to afford, the holding of a hand so they are not alone, yet there is always someone nearby to seek bitter satisfaction at the expense of others in reminding that we all die alone.

    The idea that love and family are somehow set aside compared to the ultimate reality is what compared to the more mundane reasons to believe that death is death, and we all die alone?

    Can you see? To the one, it is a terrible offense in some way to set aside family that way. To the other, in more mundane and nontheistic terms, we already acknowledge the paucity of family compared to the prospect of death. And in either case, the justification is the same: Maybe we all die alone, but at least we're not living alone. But if you're offended at the prospect that reconciliation with God precludes the earthly concerns, fears, and wants, then remember the next time you hear someone dignify human dignity, get in their face and tell them they're wrong as if Christ Himself just told you to hate your family in order to go to Heaven.

    What does it mean to be one with God? While there are many arguments toward that answer, very few of them have anything to do with worrying about what the neighbors say if your children are seen in off-brand clothing.

    ¡Q & A with Saint Peter!

    Do I get to see my dog in Heaven?

    Why, yes, you do! In fact, the Lord is so dedicated to your happiness that He will deprive Fido of the rest and oneness your devoted best friend otherwise deserves for the sake of your petty, mortal concerns. Just like everyone around you in your mortal life, Fido will now spend eternity suffering deprivation so that you, personally, can feel happy and rewarded and loved. Welcome to Heaven. Do you want your Mommy? Fine, she'll suffer, too. Just for you. Congratulations on being such a good person you finally made it to Heaven.

    To the one, Jesus did warn people about this. To the other, even those He warned about are willing to make the point he warned people. Grifters are as grifters will, but this set really needed the marks to do their work for them.

    One way of looking at it: The underlying question is, technically, moot; the discursive questions are symptomatic of human frailty.
     
  11. Michael 345 Looking for Bali in Nov Valued Senior Member

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    After an accident a guy wakes up in pleasant surroundings, music playing and as he wonders where he is a smiling woman comes up to him and says:
    Welcome to the afterlife aka hell! I’m the devil assigned to show you around and take you to your new quarters. He follows her as she shows him the gym, one of the many bars, a swimming pool and so on and he’s flabbergasted …

    Then they pass a thick iron door - through the cracks a sulphur smell wades, red lights flash and horrible screams can be heard …

    He asks the devil: What’s behind that door?

    And the devil answers:

    Oh, these are just the Christians - they want it that way!

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  12. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Hell of a show.

    We should remember two things, on this occasion: Satan likes really nice things, and the Devil is a master of deception.

    Oh, right: And Mephistophiles jumped.

    #nevermind
     
  13. Michael 345 Looking for Bali in Nov Valued Senior Member

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    I'm guessing liking really nice thing's the female devil would be like a Playmate of the Year (my bias)

    And the deception she was more the 250 kg Weight Watchers Failure of the Year (again my bias)

    Then again if the game between god and the devil is measured by how many souls you collect it might pay big time if you made hell more attractive than heaven

    The obvious distinction could be
    - heaven - sit around on clouds all day singing the praises of god
    - hell - having a spa and massage by a Playbunny

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  14. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Do you remember the bit with Jim and Bones on the icy prison planet, and the hottie prisoner?
     
  15. Michael 345 Looking for Bali in Nov Valued Senior Member

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    Does not a bell ring

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  16. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Spoiler alert: Shapeshifter↱.

    Oh, right. Twenty-seven years; don't need a spoiler alert.
     
  17. Michael 345 Looking for Bali in Nov Valued Senior Member

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    Rang bell when I watched

    Thanks

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  18. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    I don't think so. Most of them seem to become Christians in prison.
     
  19. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    That truly is hell.
     
  20. Slartibartfast Registered Member

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    Jesus can be found in any prison.
     
  21. spidergoat Venued Serial Membership Valued Senior Member

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    Looks good to the parole board.
     

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