The Christian Heaven?

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Ludofl3x, Aug 6, 2018.

  1. Ludofl3x Registered Member

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    Hello all, new guy here. I asked this on an older forum I belonged to and surprisingly, not a lot of Christians were up to the task of answering it, so I thought I might throw out a line and see if there's any takers here. It looks like there's some potential for good discussion with some of these posters, I'm looking forward to responses. In short, I have a lot of questions about the Christian heaven, and as a former Christian, some of these questions helped me realize I don't believe any of this because it makes no sense to me. Here we go:

    A woman lives her life entirely with the idea that she's accepted Jesus as her savior and will be admitted into heaven upon her demise. But she didn't marry a Christian, in fact, she married a Jewish man. They lived happily, contributed to their community, did charity, and decided that their religious differences weren't enough to deny their love for each other. They had children, one of who followed his mother's religious example, but two others grew older and decided they didn't believe in any gods at all. None of them are objectively evil, and all of them were well loved by those they came into contact with. Now, this woman dies, and ends up at the pearly gates. There she's told she is definitely able to get to heaven! Great news! Eternal joy and happiness with Jesus, PLUS she gets to tell her husband she was right, AGAIN. "Oh no," says St. Peter, "I'm afraid you don't get to tell him that. He was Jewish. He isn't going to be here." What? thinks the lady...Does this mean I'm going to spend eternity without the children who were the light of every day? "Not all of them, one will be here." This is where my questions come in:
    • If her family can't get into heaven, will she miss them, and thereby experience less than perfect happiness for all eternity?
    • If her family CAN get into heaven, then what's the point of being a Christian or the Jesus myth?
    • If she gets into heaven and doesn't remember her family enough to miss them, is she still actually HERSELF?
    • If her family can't get into heaven, but she's told "We'll make you copies that you'll never know the difference, except they're all Christian, so they're improved!" isn't that creating a situation where heaven has dishonesty built into it?
     
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  3. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

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    When in heaven she is now her true self… the self that God intended for her even befor she was created… an that self includes enuff Godly knowledge that she will be eternally joyous wit her place in heaven.!!!

    HTH
     
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  5. Ludofl3x Registered Member

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    So does she or does she not remember her family?
     
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  7. gmilam Valued Senior Member

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    I recommend reading Robert Heinlein's book - Job.
     
  8. Ludofl3x Registered Member

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    Noted, but that won't help this particular workday go by. Anyone want to take on the actual questions?
     
  9. gmilam Valued Senior Member

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    Just sayin'... In Heinlein's book, the main character falls in love with a lady who worships Odin. The rapture comes and he is lifted up to heaven only to find that she is not there. So he chooses to go to hell to be with her... She's not there either.
     
  10. Ludofl3x Registered Member

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    Makes me wish he was here to comment

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  11. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    I think I've heard a Christian explain that you'd have a kind of selective memory in heaven, so that you'd conveniently not miss any loved ones who didn't make the cut.

    As a kid, I had the impression that heaven meant going to church 24/7, so it never had much appeal for me. But growing up I did enough bad stuff that there isn't much danger of going there any more.
     
  12. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

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    When in heaven she woud be aware of the sin that she left behind... an have joy that she chose good over evel.!!!
     
  13. origin In a democracy you deserve the leaders you elect. Valued Senior Member

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    No
    None.
    Yes
    No.
     
  14. spidergoat Venued Serial Membership Valued Senior Member

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    One can always reinterpret the bible to make relative sense, for instance heaven isn't a social club where you retain all your Earthly assumptions, so maybe we all get reunited after a finite term in various stages of hell. What's the point? There's no reason to think any of it is true except perhaps as metaphor. Since these religious concepts aren't founded on evidence, you can make it mean whatever you want almost.
     
  15. kx000 Valued Senior Member

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    4,428
    If her family gives into holiness when they meet the lamb face to face they can only enter into Heaven. The bible says this "he who hates a brother is in darkness."
     
  16. Ludofl3x Registered Member

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    Interesting. So she'd be aware of sin she left behind, which implies she'd remember the bad stuff she did and maybe even feel guilty about it (again less than perfect happiness)...but she'd not remember her family. I don't know, I guess heaven doesn't sound like perfect happiness, but that's not a surprise given that humans have a much easier time imagining the eternal torments

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  17. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

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    Part of the sin she left behind was her family... an now wit her holey mind in heaven she woud not miss them... so thers no guilt to feel... she woud only know the perfect joy of bein wit perfect God.!!!
     
  18. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    I think most people I know are more pro-family than they are anti-sin. I think they'd rather have the family AND the sin.

    You make it sound like a drug.
     
  19. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

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    Yes that is why God created hell.!!!

    No no no... just simple mind control.!!!

    In my 70 years i have literally spent up to 60 minutes readin holey books... i found it much more rewardin to just create my own religion "NACA"... whare all are welcome... an i personally gurantee that no member in good standin will go to hell.!!!
     
  20. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    35,611
    They're balbutive.

    I admit, though, the setup—

    —is a weird sort of boilerplate. The answer to your question is extraordinarily obvious:

    Seriously. Pabulum.

    will she miss them — Nope. Not if she has made the cut and is Redeemed.

    what's the point — Really? I mean, fine, it's a serious question, but where to start? Let's try an inquiry about whether Salvation is finite according to numbers listed in the Revelations, or of infinite potential according to the power of the Holy Spirt, or some such. Yes, that discourse does occur in Christendom; it's kind of a mess unless one really wants to sort it out. But there is another context, called sola fide, and on this count James↱ is clear, "as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead" (2.26, RSV). And if you still can't figure out what the point is, see Matthew 25.34-46↱. The short form is something about evangelism of the Holy Spirit being requisite.

    can't remember family — Beside the point; see note on Luke below.

    make copies — No. As a "former Christian", you ought to know better than that.​

    Your answer is in the Gospel of Luke:

    "If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple. For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it? Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, saying, 'This man began to build, and was not able to finish.' Or what king, going to encounter another king in war, will not sit down first and take counsel whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? And if not, while the other is yet a great way off, he sends an embassy and asks terms of peace. So therefore, whoever of you does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple."

    (Luke 14.26-33↱, RSV)

    You've offered an elaborate, patchwork, colloquial setup with so straightforward an answer we might as well wonder if we really want to know what "Christians" you think you've been dealing with, because, really, this is proverbial can o'corn stuff.

    Notice, please, even the guy with the word "clueless"↑ misspelled in his name can recall the common vernacular distortion; he might technically be wrong about "Heaven", but that's because what he is otherwise somewhat accurately referring to is wrong, and he also knows that regardless of what you or he or I think of the line, we will indeed find variations of it all over Chrsitendom.

    What you're doing, functionally speaking, is fashioning make-believe out of make-believe derived from make-believe in order to pretend a make-believe critique.

    It is also true that given what a wreck the "Christian Heaven" actually is, I am rather quite struck to witness yet another critique crash and burn into earth-scorching failure.

    Please understand: People are setting a low bar, and historical criticism is not like dancing the limbo stick; that is, the point isn't to go lower than others. It's not like golf; the point isn't to stroke as little as possible or put in the least possible effort. And it's just the weirdest thing to get a cover-letter introductory paragraph including description of oneself as a "former Christian", and then a thoroughly non-biblical postulation on Heaven according to some vulgar distortion of Christian Scripture that is utterly ignorant of basic Christian doctrine.

    I don't think the question is necessarily about "The Christian Heaven" as much as it the "Ludofl3xian Heaven". It's not that the elements are unfamiliar, it's just that they are post hoc vulgate stitched together ad hoc for your own purpose, and, really, the stuff the former Christian seems unfamiliar with is its own mystery for whoever cares to figure it, but that bit about making copies just glitters: Where, ever, did you get it?
    ____________________

    Notes:

    Weigle, Luther, et al. The Bible: Revised Standard Version. New York: Thomas Nelson, 1971. University of Michigan. 6 August 2018. http://bit.ly/2rJddky
     
  21. spidergoat Venued Serial Membership Valued Senior Member

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    It's not difficult to find other contradictions in the Bible. You can't be arguing that it's consistent and rational. There's a talking snake in it.
     
  22. Michael 345 Bali 1 week here 2 to go Valued Senior Member

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    I'm sure you are aware of G.I.G.O

    The longer version goes somewhat like

    If you require the Universe to provide sensible answers you must first ask sensible questions

    Hint - your question came from a contrived situation in which you have already assumed heavens existence

    As for, still not sensible, matter of memory, after death you remember in the same mode as before birth

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  23. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    No, unlike Christianity, vaudeville is supposed funny. Unlike you, vaudeville is supposed to be funny by design. No, really, that bit they do where they're funny by accident, is a well-worn gag bit.

    And when you're in a room where people eat bacon, Balaam smacking his ass just isn't going to top their animal cruelty lists. Probably won't even make the top ten.
     

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