The caravan is coming

Discussion in 'Politics' started by fess, Oct 28, 2018.

  1. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    18,935
    I have visions* of a reenactment of the Kent State shootings in Ohio in 1970. "Oops! Did I fire on unarmed civilians?"

    * total lie. I was six.
     
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  3. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    For those still caught up in some kind of illusion of an American mass media populated by leftwing sources, note that every single major TV station and newspaper and mass media news source is covering this minor gathering of migrants and refugees in the Republican frame and at Republican campaign rhetoric instigation,

    right at a critical moment in the upcoming midterm elections. Right on cue, in other words.

    Again.

    The New York Times, for example, has begun putting this Republican campaign framed bogus issue on its front page, even on consecutive days. This would be embarrassing, if the newspaper that hired Bill Kristol and agreed to pay him hundreds of thousands of dollars in American money to write punditry were capable of embarrassing itself.

    There is no "caravan", any more than there is a "parade" or a "march". These people are hundreds of miles away, traveling on foot primarily, herd-associated as refugees and strangers for mutual protection, making up - if they make it - a couple of percentage points of the volume of refugees and migrants and illegals the US must deal with this year. The only story there is why they are refugees, why they are fleeing their homes. Meanwhile, at the actual border there are at least as many refugees and migrants and illegals already arrived, not hundreds of miles away, of far more immediate significance.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2018
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  5. Bells Staff Member

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    For most countries, no. Bangladesh, for example, had an influx of tens of thousands of refugees before they asked for international aid.

    For the US it seems, 3,000 walking across a continent to reach its border, yes.

    But don't fret. Most of them won't make it to the US border.

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    That is the Mexican military, using a helicopter to create a downwash/downdraft as these refugees try to cross a river, while they are in the water.

    Because drowning men, women and children is a good prevention strategy, it seems.

    In Mexico meanwhile, those who ran that gauntlet, are falling like flies..

    By the time they reach the US border, if they do make it there, they will be faced by "the military".. Trump is kind enough to tweet these warnings to these people, because apparently Hondurans fleeing violence and horror are carrying mobile phones, with internet plans to keep up with Trump's tweets..

    You know, lest these refugees who have walked across a whole frigging continent have the energy and strength to storm the US border after they bypass the masses of razor wire that was also ordered to the border..

    It has also been reported that 241km of concertina wire, also known as barbed wire or razor wire, and military helicopters will be on hand to stop migrants who are trekking through Mexico, to cross the border.

    The migrants, many of whom are families travelling with children, are fleeing poverty and violence in Central America.

    General Terrence O’Shaughnessy, the head of US Northern Command, said 800 US troops were already en route to the Texas border and more were headed to the borders in California and Arizona as part of the deployment dubbed “Operation Faithful Patriot”.

    Note the name of the operation... The number of troops is now what? 5,000?

    Trump and his acolytes are painting a picture of thousands of people storming the veritable gates, using words like "invasion", and his decision to deploy thousands of military personnel and hardware to stop the "invasion"..

    You know it's bad and gone too far when even the likes of David French comes out with comments like this:

    The migrant caravan is not an emergency. In fact, unless and until it gets hundreds of miles closer (while still retaining its size), there’s not even all that much cause for concern. Even if it arrives in some strength, there is no way for a group that size to sneak across the border, and the most powerful nation in the world has more than enough resources to meet the migrants when they attempt to cross, detain them, and begin the necessary legal proceedings.

    It would be a challenge, but (again) not an emergency. And as the caravan marches north — shedding people along the way — the president (and his allies) should be able to make a calm, compelling argument for national borders and the rule of law.

    Or they could publicly panic.

    Honestly, it’s hard to think of a response less measured and more effective at undermining moderate support for immigration restrictions than the reaction of the president and key allies. The president’s tweets have conveyed extraordinary alarm. Here are some selected entries:

    Sadly, it looks like Mexico’s Police and Military are unable to stop the Caravan heading to the Southern Border of the United States. Criminals and unknown Middle Easterners are mixed in. I have alerted Border Patrol and Military that this is a National Emergy. Must change laws!

    10:37 PM - Oct 22, 2018 *link to tweet: https://bit.ly/2ERL7gN

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Many Gang Members and some very bad people are mixed into the Caravan heading to our Southern Border. Please go back, you will not be admitted into the United States unless you go through the legal process. This is an invasion of our Country and our Military is waiting for you!

    12:41 AM - Oct 30, 2018 *link to tweet: https://bit.ly/2JrZbMW
    Then, just yesterday alone, on Fox News and Fox Business, guests raised truly absurd claims about the diseases the migrants might bring to the U.S., including leprosy, a polio-like disease, and smallpox. In case you were wondering, smallpox has been eradicated for decades, and the last known smallpox death was in 1978.

    And now the Pentagon is planning to send thousands of troops to the border, a military buildup that may soon match or even exceed American deployments to Iraq.

    Moreover, it may well be an extraordinary waste of resources. Trump is creating the impression that the Army will protect America’s borders, but it doesn’t have the legal authority to enforce American law. The Posse Comitatus Act prohibits the use of the military in a law-enforcement role. Consequently, the troops will act not — as Trump describes in his tweet — as a military force responding to “invaders” but instead as mere logistical support for conventional federal law enforcement.


    Now, French is applying the law. If asylum seekers apply for asylum to the US at the border, they must be processed as such.

    Trump is carrying on as though 3,000 people, many of whom are women and children, are about to storm the borders and invade the US.

    The thousands of troops being sent there, along with the hardware to provide "logistical support" (notice how Trump says the military is waiting for them to defend the US against the invasion? They are only allowed to provide logistical support, so note the manner in which Trump is spreading lies to stoke fear), to fly the law enforcement and immigration officers to apparent hot spots where these thousands of people are apparently going to launch their invasion with the clothes on their backs and children in their arms.. Not to mention deploy razor wire and build tents and command outposts for the immigration officers... For 3,000 people if they get there.

    I cannot even imagine the financial cost of "Operation Patriot Faithful"..

    But it's free advertising for the election. "Operation Patriot Faithful" deploys on the 5th of November.. The day before the midterms, the news media will be saturated by images of Trump sending the military to the border to protect the US against the "invasion"..
     
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  7. Xelor Registered Senior Member

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    There's little basis for thinking be temporally proximate the arrival at the US southern border of some such 5K people. Already, in the "space" of the ~300 miles they've walked as of today, 1700+ of them have departed the caravan, having sought asylum in Mexico, just given up, or died.

    In light of that, I think the U.S. should determine what to do with 5K asylum seekers of the sort you've described when it becomes clear it'll actually have that many. To wit, the US faces more imminently detrimental harbingers of woe, climate change is one that comes to mind, and it's doing nothing about them and the timeline for being able to do something effectual draws rapidly, relative to the nature of the changes, to a close. Among the bases for the inaction on climate change are claimed uncertainty and the risk that doing something may effect economic upheaval of some sort. For however legitimate be those concerns re: acting to attenuate climate change's progress and its predicted impacts, the impacts of some 5K immigrants will in no way outstrip those that climate change can bring.

    So, if one's rational is to delay acting on matters having huge and potentially centuries-long consequences, I cannot see how one can argue that there's any need to worry about some 5K bedraggled and weak individuals arriving at our southern border to solicit asylum.
     
  8. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    5,089
    Because there are young men among them. Strong young men. Street gangs. Didn't you see them, above, refusing to drown in the river? According to The President-for-Life-if-his-Designer-Supreme-Court-Has-Anything-to-Do-with-It of the Once-and-Future-Great United States, that's proof they're a danger.
    As for climate change, he'll nuke that, too, if it comes near his byooootiful Wall.
     
  9. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    8,466
    at least 58000 Venezuelans have recently migrated to Brazil.
    They are welcomed, but living conditions and jobs are a disappointment so, many have returned to their old homeland, and, many more are thinking of doing so.
     
  10. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    54,036
    They have to report the Republican narrative, it's the news, unfortunately.
     
  11. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    30,994
    Oh bullshit.
    Putting the wingnut feed on the front page of the NYT for days on end just prior to the election is not "covering the news". Using the wingnut feed vocabulary and framing is not inevitable, or even sound journalistic practice. If the Reps want campaign ads in the NYT, they can pay for them like everybody else.

    A story on traffic safety would not include the advertising slogans and sales pitch focus of a particular tire company as part of the delivered information.
     
    Jeeves likes this.
  12. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    7,447
    what 1st world countrys use live amunition to shoot people who are throwing stones at them ?
    does anyone have a list ?

    considering the US home defense laws
    if a person is on your property in the usa and they throw a stone at you or one of your guests or family, it is legal to shoot them dead ? yes ?
    it must be.
    i realise the us police have some type of strange law that means when they use a gun to shoot someone it is not considered a deadly weapon.
    that confuses me quite a bit however it is a clear law, i assume a gun held by a civilian is also not a deadly weapon ? or only police can hold and use a gun and have it classed as "not a deadly weapon" while a civilian using any object in an attack or percieved attack(if its an accident) the item they use is deemed a deadly weapon ?
    cars as deadly weapons etc... sticks rocks etc ...

    so i am wondering if it is legal for any us person to simply kill another person on their property because the person was holding something that could be used as a deadly weapon, rock, stick what ever...

    is this a new legal prescident being set or is it existing already.
    it seems quite interesting as i had thought that the usa protested against other countrys using live amunition on named "un-armed" civilians/people.
    so i am wondering if the term "armed" is specifically different for different countrys and also inside the usa for different people.

    what happens if one of the shots from a US soldier goes over the mexican border and kills a mexican on the other side ?
    any live rounds being shot into mexico by US military may legally be classed as an act of war ?
    is that classed as an act of war ?
    or does the usa have to 1st declare war on mexico before anything is considered an act of war ?

    i would imagine the mexcican and US military know each other and participate in joint exercises, so it seems odd to have one of them standing up against the border shooting at the others people etc...
    it all seems soo confusing
    how many different armed agencies does the usa have on its border ?
    i imagine it must look like a marketing conference with the list of 3 letter acronyms.
    dea fbi dhs usbc usc usm ussp usp sp atf fsm fm sm (i cant recall them all off hand)

    thats 13 different armed agencies not counting local police
    then add to that
    state military
    national military
    do they have federal miliatry ?

    so now they might have some reservist who is suffering from god knows what mental health issues who is suddenly put in the middle of all those people with a gun...

    add to that locals who are freaked out walking around with loaded guns looking to shoot unknownpeople coming on to their farm land...

    my mind boggles
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2018
  13. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    5,089
    ...soda can, cell-phone...
    Of course it is, provided only that the shooter is a property-owning white adult and the trespasser is a male of any age, so long as he's some other colour.
    That's all in the constitution you know.
     
  14. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    It's called the bully pulpit for a reason.
     
  15. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

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    3,266
    Re: U.S. armed forces: I think there are a number of reasons they legally cannot do what Trump is ordering them to do, but as to shooting people throwing stones? I think that violates Rules of Engagement--even for U.S. forces.

    As to whether or not they will follow these illicit orders, that's another question.
     
  16. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    21,635
    That's exactly what they want.

    All the gun nuts would become very excited. "Team USA stopping the criminals! HELL YEAH! I bet his head flew 10 feet through the air when it was ventilated by a 5.56 at 3000 feet per second! I gotta get another M16A4. Awesome!" Might even last more than four hours; hopefully they would call their doctor if that happens.

    The Republicans would don their faux sad faces and lament "it's too bad those people couldn't help their violent tendencies. Thoughts and prayers. No one wanted this, other than the Democrats who supported this attack."

    Democrats would condemn the shooting. Trump would capitalize on this, saying "Pocohontas there feels bad for that violent foreign thug who was stopped before he raped anyone - but not our own troops defending this great nation! Sad!"

    So a shooting wouldn't be a bug - it would be a feature.
     
  17. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    30,994
    The brigade level soldier panic deployment is currently set at 45 days. The remains of the group of migrants at issue will probably take longer than that to arrive.
    The last such group (back in April of this year) started with some thousands, ended three months later with around 150 extra detainees. It's a long walk.
    They'd probably fit on one airplane, for deportation.


    (same song, two versions - second one has the names in the credits)
     
  18. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

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    3,266
    Unfortunately, in the U.S. we've got originalists and textualists on the Supreme Court (and elsewhere) who actually subscribe to such batshit crazy readings, not wholly dissimilar to what you said (in sarcasm). That the Constitution was drafted by slave-owning, propertied white men--and "all men..." certainly did not account for everyone else--doesn't seem to be much of a concern to them.
     
  19. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    5,089
    Rather the contrary. They want to revoke citizenship from everyone else. They want their slaves back. This has never been a closely-guarded secret, but this time, having a very big, hollow echo-chamber in the White House, they are really starting to believe their own hype.
     
  20. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    7,447
    "the men & women of our military deserve better than that. that's not patriotism" !

    if i didnt know any better, which i dont.
    the real world impact of this event is going to globally discredit the US military and make them look like foolish gun slinging cowards.

    is that the intention ?

    dragging the military brass through legal mud as soldiers are ordered to do actions that will result in them being courtmarshalled under military and civil law.

    what is the accident rate for 15,000 people being moved around over thousands of kilometers hauling heavy loads and such like ?
    the simple statistics suggest some are going to be injured for life, and die of avoidable inccidence because they have been ordered into this action.

    it reminds me of the iraq invasion when friendly fire inccidents happend.
    the struggle to learn and upskill and upgrade as quickly as possible to save lifes etc...
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2018
  21. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    i think Israel is the only one where its SOP
     

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