The Broad Brush? Women and Men; Prejudice and Necessity

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Asguard, Jun 4, 2014.

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  1. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

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    If you dont get it by now... yet anuther shot at it on my part woud be insanity.!!!

    Roll wit it... you'r be-all end-all to Sciforums fantasy is just that... a fantasy.!!!

    What a waste of such an inteligent guy... Jesus H. Christ... why not try an get along wit membership insted of tryin to turn 'em into Tiassa cloans.!!!

    Ive known that all along but thanks for the acknowledgment.!!!
     
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  3. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    That is actually true. For example, I don't think that misrepresentation, deception, baiting and libel are useful. I don't think it's of any ethical use to redefine a person's character so that they fit a hateful stereotype. I don't think that ends trump the means uniformly and I don't think it's useful to resortI to any tactics so long as I win a debate. I don't think it's useful to force a dichotomy such that the debaters are forced to select between two equally absurd positions. I don't take up with absurd, libelous narratives so that my cronies feel well-disposed towards me.

    Tiassa, seemingly, thinks differently.

    There are many other differences, of course; probably as many as there are ethical juxtapositons and probably few of which turn out in Tiassa's favour. But that is neither here nor there: the really telling word in Tiassa's 'rebuttal' is "useful".

    Nowhere in that post did I see the words "moral", "ethical" (that word again), or "just". Strangely, all three of these occur in the actual title of this subforum. A thing only seems 'good' to Tiassa by whatever god or not-god today if it is "useful". How strange. Just how such a seemingly Freudian omission of such venerated terms can occur in a statement of motivations and potentialities, I certainly have no idea. It is not for me, for instance, to say that the stated assertions (and assassinations) are illusory: oh no. Perhaps it is only my own egotistical, attention-seeking devotion to such words that makes me so doubtful about the reasoning that seems to lack them.

    As it's ex-officio slayer, I expect you should be quite proud about that. You have successfully morphed it into a platform area for your primary usage. Congratulations! I only hope there will remain those to hear your message, whenever it achieves its surely impressive summation.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    I couldn't have made any better obliquely phrasing of your perspective on the posters than the above. I'm sure the next unstated five-year-plan will be even better, as you pursue that asymptotic end of the dialectic that we all claim to see, somewhere, just over the horizon, and which justifies whatever we do.

    You know, like they used to do for 'the Devil'.
     
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  5. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    The Obvious Points

    Oh, you're changing your argument, now?

    Shoulda seen that coming.

    Let me know when you're ready to be honest.

    Actually, you don't.

    (1) He's already been through the wringer; sorry the spectacle wasn't in public view.

    (2) He's trying. As I often note, there is a difference between acknowledging human frailty and exploiting it.​

    You see, there is a difference between an individual simply being imperfect, and wallowing in that imperfection.

    Actually, Geoff, you should go back and read that one. You're the same now as you were then. I mean, it would be hilarious if it wasn't sad. And it wasn't me that you denigrated on that occasion; rather, you mocked suicidal teenagers. And then lost your shit. And you've been pissy about it ever since.

    As I said above, let me know when you're ready to be honest.
     
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  7. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Cap'n Inobviouspants

    No, you're not changing my argument, now. You don't get to make it over into whatever you want because you want to score points like you're playing Whack-a-Prole. Again, if you don't have the sensibility, honesty or at least the lateral scope to identify the core elements of a hypothesis, then just sit it out. Okay? To wit, in that massive and well-presented counter to your usual spectrum, you chose to concentrate on why I thought you didn't bitch Kitta out. The trying aspect comes about only if one wanders into the thread and buys your crap. Or would you like to try your hand at actually dissecting that comment? Your best go above was "nyah nyah that's not what you meant". So break it down like a good neo-intellectual, or contribute something "useful". Until then, this fisk's for you:

    Exactly.

    Nice to know there are some standards. I'm sure it won't crop up again in a way that might look hypocritical.

    Oh, of course. To agree with you - you know, in the heart - and fail is to try. To disagree with you is just evil. No, no: we get it. Just like how "exploiting" human frailty is done via an argument on an internet board. Everything makes sense through the kaleidoscope of your readings. Sure.

    This one made me laugh again. So - Tiassa is perfect? Kitta was not. But he's trying to be perfect... which is to say, Tiassa! He's not wallowing in not being Tiassa. Right. No, no, that didn't sound crazy at all. No, you totally nailed it, dude. There's no way Geoff would find anything in that that might make you look stupid. Yeah, definitely hit "Submit Reply". This will be your crowning achievement!

    The rest is straight out of what the hot valedictorian wrote on your high school yearbook when you weren't looking:

    They say it ends, but really, it doesn't.
     
  8. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    This Post Has No Title

    Correction/Retraction

    The post that goes here was indeed mistaken.

    Sorry 'bout that, Geoff ... I got lost in the double-negative, it would seem.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2014
  9. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    22,087
    Psychometrician, heal thyself

    Support, retract, or step down.

    I think you know how that dance goes.

    Edit on the above edit to Tiassa's post:O...kay... ?

    ... Thanks for taking note of the comment as written... ? I'm not even sure where the double negative was now.

    This has never happened before. I'm so confused.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2014
  10. Capracus Valued Senior Member

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    1,296
    72% Rape Apology

    Soon to be classified as rape advocacy.
     
  11. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    If You Didn't Make Up Self-Aggrandizing Rants, You Might Be Able to Make a Point

    I think your egocentric rants would be much more effective if they dealt with reality.

    Nobody's perfect, dude. If you have to presume that in order to get your temper off, that's your own problem.

    Meanwhile, it really would help if you would try to make sense.
     
  12. Bells Staff Member

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    23,390
    But I don't think you do.

    I asked you how you could hope to explain the biological cause for rape you have been arguing for, when the victims are males (ie male raping other males), children and the elderly and that was your response. Because you are so intent on the rape cannot be about power or dominance as evidenced by a mountain of studies, as you believe it has to be about sex and the biological urge to breed.. You are the only one changing your argument.

    This is classic GeoffP. Absolute dishonesty. This is what you always do. Rape is biology and about sex has been the premise of your argument in this and other rape threads. You can stop lying about it and you can stop trying to deny your very words.

    Only when dealing with stupid illiterate tin foiled hat trolls intent on dragging threads down to his level and doing his best to stir up more trouble.
     
  13. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    ... I have no idea how that would follow from my satire of your apparent egomania. And, let it be said, I do not actually want to know how it would follow, in your mind.

    Anyway, that was definitely the "action area" of that post. That was for sure the critical stuff. At least you're not abashed to omit the really essential elements of the argument in favour of... whatever.

    Oh - sorry. I never did ask if you'd suddenly lost your ability to recognise sarcasm.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2014
  14. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Can you do a little better than that?

    Would you care to be more specific?
     
  15. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Why would I care what you allegedly think this moment? You present nothing new in this allegation, and the points have been refuted above. Earlier, you actually acknowledged that I didn't think it was entirely biological. But now you're back on that initial, and falsified, inference. So why do I care what you're claiming you think this second? I have no belief whatsoever that you either have a track on your own discussion - Tiassa's minute-to-minute allegation fits very well here - or that you would deal with any such debate honestly anyway.

    Earlier, you indicated to me that you thought we should have no further interaction. I don't recall which one of us tried to engage the other first, but I think maybe we should try that ideal again; it is clear that you have no ability to treat with me honestly or fairly. So, let us try that one more time.

    Oooh, he's a troublemaker. I think I see where this is going.
     
  16. Bells Staff Member

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    23,390
    More like soon to be classified as mansplaining to women about how to deal with date rape. No, really, can you be more patronising and condescending?

    How many times do you think you need to lecture about how women can stop herself from being raped? And I like how you provide snippets but the quotes themselves deal with date rape and most deal with first time dates. They don't deal with being raped by one's spouse or sexual partner or relative or close friend, employer or colleagues.

    For example from one of your links:

    Being raped by someone you know and trust, such as your spouse, intimate partner, parent, sibling, relative.. You actually think this is going to help you?

    I mean come on! Tell your partner that you have an STD in the hope he's not going to rape you? Do you think someone who is intent on taking absolute control over your body and raping you is going to care if you are sick or pregnant? Are you shitting me?

    And try and remain calm... Yes, try and remain calm as someone is ramming their penis or object up into your vagina or your anus or down your throat against your will.. Tell me, how calm would you be if someone was jamming something up your backside as they pinned you down?

    Do you tell your wife and daughter to not get in the car with you or any other male relative? Stay around other people? What other people? Because rape prevention is about distrusting anyone and everyone. And BYO beverage.. Yes, always works well if you go to a bar or in your own home. I suppose you can tie it to your chest and drink from a straw.. Go to parties with friends that you trust.. rape prevention demands that no friend can be trusted. The statistics clearly state, you are more likely to be raped by the person you trust.

    If you really want to prevent rape, then just don't associate with anyone. Become a hermit. Instead of advice that borders on the ridiculous such as "I have STD", why not provide a nurturing environment that encourages rape victims to come forward and report it?

    I'll put it this way.. Having read all of what I have read about rape prevention in my time, it made me second guess reporting it and going through the whole awful process for nothing, because all that advice you all keep shoving down people's throats made me think that I was somehow to blame, that I should have done more and better to stop it. There is a reason why rape victims don't come forward to report it. It is because they feel ashamed and feel they are to blame. And the utter crap you people keep peddling is part of that reason because it places the onus on the woman and the man to not be raped.
     
  17. Capracus Valued Senior Member

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    1,296
    It’s all about proactive advice for women to minimize the risk of acquaintance rape, how could it not be classified as rape advocacy?

    Mansplaining? And what kind of splaining is advoction by Tiassa?

    Nobody is shoving advice down anyone’s throat, or blaming you or any other victims for their misfortune. It’s advice that if followed may give potential victims some degree of protection from the danger posed by the current crop of violent perpetrators that infest our societies.

    After assessing your own sexual assault incident, do you feel there are any measures you could’ve reasonably taken to mitigate the damage?
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2014
  18. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    36,325
    How Is This Difficult?

    Well, it does depend on context; is it offered in lieu of discussing the cultural attitudes empowering the rape culture?

    I sometimes mansplain. However, where I seem to get a pass on that is twofold; I often note that I'm about to mansplain, and what I end up mansplaining is men.

    For instance, can you tell the difference between these two mansplanations:

    (1) In a discussion of attitudes contributing to rape culture, an American male advises an Australian female about an aspect of American men that she might not be aware of or accounting for in her puzzlement about a given phenomenon.

    (2) In a discussion of attitudes contributing to rape culture, a man tells a woman what she needs to do to prevent rape.​

    And if you really want to make a point about whether or not the pitches you listed are rape advocacy, perhaps it would help if you offered some actual content of your own, instead of just baiting.

    Think of it this way. In Seattle, we had an episode last year that involved someone driving around and trying to abduct women, resulting in joggers and pedestrians being accosted.

    The police department's response was to release a list of rape prevention tips: Don't use your mobile phone in public, get a better haircut, wear different shoes, wear better clothes ... and even the useful tip to not get into a car with any strange man.

    So some dudes are driving around, trying to lure and eventually force women into a car, and SPD thinks women need to be reminded to not get into a car with a stranger.

    Our new police chief is a woman; we'll see if any of this changes.

    And by the way, Meg Stone's article for Ms.?

    She lied to her sisters.

    Most advice women get about how to reduce our risk of rape is also advice about how to reduce ourselves. It’s about places we shouldn’t go, clothes we shouldn’t wear, times we shouldn’t be alone. The message of feminist self-defense is just the opposite: Use common sense, sure, but if you have the skills to verbally and physically protect yourself, you can live your life fully and safely in a rape culture.

    Self-defense is a fine idea in and of itself, but much like the simple crime prevention tips people find so useful, as if women's cars aren't broken into, or something, the problem is the rape culture.

    In the first place, self-defense is great for bar fights, muggings, and other such crimes. Sure, it helps. Neither, in those cases, are women immune from bar fights, muggings, and other such crimes. The effect, however, of IPA in lieu of unraveling the attitudes and customs empowering rape culture, is to put that burden on women specifically for rape.

    Furthermore, there is the statistical reality. A nice, domestic scene:

    ...."Really?" he asked. "Jiu-jitsu? Cool. I hear it's good fitness."
    ...."Yes," she replied. "And it will help protect me against rape."
    ...."Well, it's not like I'm not around to protect you, too."
    ...."Actually," she explained patiently, suddenly wondering what she had ever seen in him, "I'm protecting myself against you."
    ...."What? What do you mean?"
    ...."You do realize that my greatest rape threat is my male intimate partner and male friends?"

    Of course, that wouldn't happen, would it? Use common sense, sure, Stone acknowledges, but there are also those who would suggest that a woman protecting herself against her husband and male friends is not, by definition, common sense.

    At any rate, the part Stone got right is that, "Most advice women get about how to reduce our risk of rape is also advice about how to reduce ourselves."

    The part she got wrong, the lie she tells, is that "you can live your life fully and safely in a rape culture". That line probably wouldn't go over so well if she tried it on the female karate instructor who was raped outside her own school once upon a time, a story I still remember because it was one of the first local news items to catch my eye after I moved to Oregon.

    Still, though, "you can live your life fully and safely in a rape culture" makes for a great pitch.

    Think about the world you're asking for, Capracus.

    Like your Voices of Hope link. Print out that list. Live by it for six months. In fact, count up every prevention resource you've ever suggested, enumerate all the tips, and live by them all for six months.

    And even though you probably won't do that, please at least note the end of that page:

    IF YOU ARE ATTACKED:

    Try to stay calm so that you can gather information and make decisions. Draw attention to yourself – scream, yell “fire” or “help”. Resist as long as it is safe to do so. Claim to be sick pregnant have a venereal disease of to have AIDS. If you are assaulted, do not shower, change clothes or douche until you make a decision about reporting to the police or going to the hospital. If you think you may have been drugged, make sure the hospital knows so that they can test for the drugs. You may request a female officer. While you will be encouraged to talk to the police, you have the right to obtain medical assistance and not talk to the police.

    REMEMBER: You are not trying to win, you are trying to survive. If you have been assaulted, there are resources available to help.

    In other words, once a woman does all that, and is still sexually assaulted, here's what to do. And while what to do if raped isn't so problematic—they do not appear to be giving erroneous or misleading advice—it is a reminder that these "prevention" tips don't actually prevent.

    Although I do wonder about the pay phone advice. In Seattle, they tell women to not use their mobile phones in public. Frankly, I don't see how standing in one place while waiting for an unreliable pay phone to either connect or not or maybe even eat your change is that much safer than calling 911 on a mobile phone.
    ____________________

    Notes:

    Stone, Meg. "A Call for Self-Defense Against Victim-Blaming AND Against Rape". Ms. September 14, 2010. MSMagazine.com. July 8, 2014. http://msmagazine.com/blog/2010/09/14/self-defense-against-victim-blaming-against-rape/

    Voices of Hope. "Reducing the Risk of Acquaintance Rape". 2014. VoicesOfHopeLincoln.org. July 8, 2014. http://voicesofhopelincoln.org/reso...sualt/reducing-the-risk-of-acquaintance-rape/
     
  19. Bells Staff Member

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    23,390
    Because it sets the tone that it is her responsibility to act or do certain things so some random person she knows or does not know does not attack her and rape her. The onus is placed on her to not be raped.

    Do you have those rules down somewhere for your wife and daughter to live by and understand? Do you reiterate it to them each time they leave the house?

    Thus far, the favourite is Mississippi's rape prevention tips, which advise women to walk down the middle of the road and to leave accident scenes to prevent being raped.

    Really?

    Thus far it's been repeated constantly, even after it has been made clear that it is unwelcome and unnecessary. How many more times do I have to say stop before you all stop?

    And as your advice states, when she is raped, this is what she has to do. In other words, your date rape advice is catered more to women for after they have been raped.

    You are actually asking me, a rape victim, what I could have done to mitigate my own rape? Because that's not you putting the onus on me, is it? That's not you attempting to make me feel guilty for having allowed it to happen, is it? Because that's not you trying to make me feel as though I had done something wrong, is it?

    My rapist broke into my property as I slept. What steps do you think I should have taken to mitigate the damage?

    Steps I could have taken:

    1) Not have been alone in my own home.
    2) Installed electrified bars on my doors and windows.
    3) Had armed guards posted in my family room.
    4) Never have fallen asleep.

    Do any of these sound reasonable to you?
     
  20. Motor Daddy ☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼ Valued Senior Member

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    There are more than 4 steps you could have taken.

    5. Slept with a .357 under your pillow.
    6. Cage around bed (and house).
    7. Geese in the yard. They make noise and alert you when someone enters the property. Que up the .357.
    8. Booby trap the place prior to going to bed.

    Oh you get the point, right? There are a million things you "could" have done, but then there are a million things you "could" have done to prevent that car accident you just had last week when you drove to work on a different road because you missed the turn because you were texting while driving. Could have not texted or missed the turn, totally avoiding the accident. But you didn't.


    ...But then how could you have done EVERYTHING to PREVENT such an event?

    Your vision after the fact is just astounding! How about prior to? You pretty good at fortune telling?
     
  21. Bells Staff Member

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    23,390
    It's not my fault my kids broke my crystal ball and fed the small human bones used in my voodoo rituals for fortune telling to the dog!
     
  22. Motor Daddy ☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼ Valued Senior Member

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    No need to wear your seat belt! That would be asking for an accident!
     
  23. Motor Daddy ☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼☼ Valued Senior Member

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    5,105
    I also think you OWE GeoffP, Balerion, and Trooper a sincere apology. Just an opinion shared by others, which seems to be a popular one.
     
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