The Bible and Laws

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Rita, Mar 21, 2013.

  1. Rita Registered Member

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    No secular governments have always existed. The Greeks and Rome had secular governments. Kings ruled independent of the church, and it was a power conflict between the kings and the church that lead to the Protestant Reformation Movement. However, I think the most distance between church and state was created in the US first. England broke from the church and created its own church. A main cause of the American Revolution was fear that the king of England would impose his church on everyone in the colonies. The colonies in the north were started by people who thought they had the best understanding of religion, and they competed with each other to produce the most saints. We did not exactly have freedom of religion then, but established it, in part, because the different religious colonies were fighting each other. They had peace only if they could completely avoid each other. As soon as they grew big enough to have a problem avoiding each other they began fighting. The constitution created a secular government over all of them to end the fighting over many things, from charging a toll to use a road, to differences in religious beliefs. The US constitution did what Wellwisher said, gave us a team leader.
     
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  3. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    Your not a very good new are you? In the original language good magic users and bad magic users were differentiated. Also in earlier translations to English exodus 22:18 was translated as though shall not suffer a poisoner to live it was only changed to witch in the King James Bible.
     
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  5. Rhaedas Valued Senior Member

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    No, they didn't. Look up basic info on religion in those civilizations and how intertwined in politics they were.

    No, that was a conflict within the Church itself. Again, look up the facts.

    Here you are correct. The idea of an actual separation was a new idea, thus my earlier point of it being very recent.

    And who was the Head of the Church of England? And still is. Only difference is that the Royalty has much less power now than before, another recent development.

    Without research I can't say this wasn't one factor, but the major one? No. It went much deeper than just religion.

    Partially correct. It was also set up because the Founders were living in times where they could see governments in existence that had heavy religious ties, and realized that this was a problem, so they set out to try a different, secular approach, something that had not been done before.
     
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  7. Rhaedas Valued Senior Member

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    I can't find an English version out of 40 that are online that doesn't say witch, sorceress, or woman who practices magic. Reference? I would point out that some of those are more modern translations from older texts that are considered more accurate than the KJV.
     
  8. arauca Banned Banned

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    And who did all the nasty things ,,, The intellectuals, the peasant in those time did not know how to read and write , but he listened to the knowledged people and he just obeyed , So please don't blame all the Christians blame the intellectuals. How is a little different . The poor collar worker he just listened what the so called scientist say and many time scientist speculate but the common man believes them and he is used by them . Us the same think , the gong ho politician excite the masses to go to war , to defend the country and the freedom , so the poor slob goes and get shot for the motherland . I believe things have not changed much from which burning .
     
  9. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    thats pasrt of the problem most of the translations are of words that are more precise than the english witch or soceress which are used for brevity sake. your probably not going to find a version that doesn't.
     
  10. Rhaedas Valued Senior Member

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    You claimed there was one, so where did you find it?
     
  11. Rhaedas Valued Senior Member

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    Also I think this got bypassed in the number of topics. A short but interesting question, anyone care to try and point out one?

     
  12. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    I never found one. merely read references to it.
     
  13. Rita Registered Member

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    You win. Unless someone else has better information. When some one sees a car and insist it is a boat, I withdraw from the argument.
     
  14. Rita Registered Member

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    I can not stand this. When were you educated? Please learn something about Cicero, a Roman statements who was educated in Athens. Athens was thought to be a land of geniuses when their ancient civilization was rediscovered. Our government and education were modeled after Athens and Rome. Cicero is one of the most important men when it comes to our forum of government. Athenians studied nature and they believed it was human nature to be political animals. They educated for this, and so did the US until 1958. You write like someone educated in the US after 1958, and you should be concerned about what you do not know.

    Wellwisher, you also seem to lack knowledge of the Greek and Roman classics, and therefore of the reasoning behind democracy, because you seem to credit all that is good to Christianity. Democracy is about rule by reason, and Socrates if very important to this reasoning. Socrates believed in reincarnation and this is a helpful belief to democracy, because it means we come back to the wonderful nation we create, and the problems we ignored. That is a pretty strong motivation for thinking of what is best for everyone. Those who were bad slave owners could come back as Blacks and suffer the consequences of their wrong. Even if they personally didn't suffer the wrongs of the ways, their grandchildren would. Socrates said it may take 3 generations for the wrongs we commit to be realized as in intolerable problem, but sooner or later, our wrongs will present a problem. This is the reasoning behind Cicero's advise. We do right because want to avoid the bad consequences of doing wrong, and those who do wrong and enemies of the state.
     
  15. Rita Registered Member

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    For sure, however, for awhile they were changed. The US modeled its education after Athens education, and taught with the Conceptual Method and prepared everyone for independent thinking. This is training in the higher level thinking skills which are neglected by education for technology. The former education transmitted a culture based on the classics, and this is essential to liberty. It prepared people to understanding the responsibility of living in a democracy. It is horrifying to me that in this day of instead information, no one researched Baghdad when talk of war against Iraq began. If the mass had felt as responsibility for what the nation does, as they should, everyone would have attempted to "know the enemy", and they would have known the enemy was the Neo Cons and the New Century American Project, not Iraq. In general we have been so irresponsible for what our nation does, the future does not look good. This problem begins with our education. Education that is producing products for industry, instead of citizens for democracy, and has left moral training to the church, is the enemy.
     
  16. Rhaedas Valued Senior Member

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    I guess you're attacking my last point, about the causes that drove the colonies to revolution. I'll admit I don't know everything, but I've read enough about the American Revolution to know that that, just like so many struggles in history, there was not a single cause, but a long and continued pressure that finally came to a point. A point that without certain figures, Paine for one, would have continued to persist. What you say about the early state of the US government being influenced by the Greco-Roman period is certainly true, but that wasn't really what was being discussed.

    My responses to the rest stand...religion has been a big part of political decisions, and frankly still is, even with the separation clause in place. But we are much more secular than in previous governments, who often would bend to the whim of the religion in place.
     
  17. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    I'm not a good Jew at all, I'm afraid. Thank you for pointing out the mistranslation.
     
  18. Arioch Valued Senior Member

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    Wait, "science" was responsible for the Inquisition and the other witch hunts? And all this time I thought it was the violent and inflammatory language in holy book of the dominant religion at the time(Christianity). Here I thought that since, at the time, the churches controlled the local governments in all but name(being able to damn politicians to hell for not cooperating with church leaders gave them a hell of a lot of power over the superstitious people of the time), the churches would stand to take the most blame for those horrific events. Given that every justification given for such manhunts was(and is) always religious in nature, blaming them on anything but religion seems to be a mistake to me.
     

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