The Battle of Midway was the Turning Point of WWII

Discussion in 'History' started by Buffalo Roam, May 9, 2010.

  1. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    16,931
    Hog Wash, the U.S. supplied 1/3 of the equipment supplies and food in the Russian Army, the biggest thing the U.S. did for the Soviets was to provide them trucks to mobilize their army, and with out that assistance the Germans would have run rings around the foot slogging kulak.

    Really, have you ever really studied the Battle of Malaya? it was classical Blitz Kreig, infantry, armor, air, right down the peninsula, or the Japanese invasion of Manchuria?


    No because they couldn't get enough air cover together, to support any larger force movements, the result of the Battle of Midway and the lose of 4 carriers.


    Again have you done any study of the China, Manchurian, and Malaysian campaigns? no.

    The Japanese Command wasn't capable of waging effective war?

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    Really? and have you looked at the map?

    Yes only after the U.S. had broken the Japanese,

    Russo-Japanese War (1904-05), military conflict in which a victorious Japan forced Russia to abandon its expansionist policy in the Far East, becoming the first Asian power in modern times to defeat a European power.

    The battle of Khalkhin Gol was a draw, and in all reality a single battle not a war, and the losses on both sides were a statistical dead heat, plus the fact that the Japanese were not all that interested in moving north, their plans were to move south, resources, oil rubber, tin, copper, iron ore......

    The Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere

    With the greatest prosperity all going to Japan.

    Soviet: 7,974 killed, 15,251 wounded, Mongolian: 274, (all for a strip of land 10 miles deep and 25 miles wide) vs; Japanese losses of 8,440 killed, 8,766 wounded.
     
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  3. Shogun Bleed White and Blue! Valued Senior Member

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    Big deal, the rarities...

    They were thinly spread, they didn't have the manpower or resources. It was the best they could do.

    Not trained....GO READ!

    Maneuver tactics....they used them on a daily basis. It is the basics for naval warfare...

    Sure......unlike their Soviet counterparts, they were mostly highly educated gentlemen. They also conquered vast amounts of territory, MANY being European colonies. One of the excuses of the The Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere is to wipe out European control of East and Southeast Asia.

    They didn't have the manpower or resources of the Soviet Union, especially in that area. They are also not very good at fighting in cold climates. Their ground force is weaker then their navy. Also, in the First Russo-Japanese War, Japan had a very decisive victory.
     
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  5. Shogun Bleed White and Blue! Valued Senior Member

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    Flake, learn something about Nippon-koku.
     
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  7. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

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    stop buffalo, he said good day, maybe if we ignore him like the ass he is he will run along...the little troll.
     
  8. soullust Registered Senior Member

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    No it wasn't.

    Maybe for the USA and the japs, but in no way was it the turning point with Germany.

    Anyway I never read the tread, just responding to title and i Know it is Bullshit

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  9. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

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    Yah, buffalo accidentely made a typo. It should have been "The Battle of the Pacific was the turning point of the Pacific War"

    But buffalo and I are debating which was the most decisive battle of the Pacific war, Midway or Guadalcanal. And before you say which read our arguments on the first page, his is the first post, mine is the 3rd or 4th.
     
  10. soullust Registered Senior Member

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    Guadalcanal was indeed, the major pacific turning point, strategically.

    But I do feel that midway was The first major blow on the japs, and it was the beginning of the end.

    Oh and how can anyone call any Russian sheep, I don't trust them, but i sure as hell respect them-

    Fed I bet you said lets just ignore that soul guy maybe he will go away too

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    Last edited: May 12, 2010
  11. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

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    No I didnt. The reason is you actually knew something about what you were talking about. The argument this guy is making is ridiculous because he does not even know enough of the Pacific war to make that sort of argument. I don't have enough knowledge on the eastern front to make that sort of argument against Russia and that's why I have never done so.

    It would be like if somebody argued that Pearl Harbor was a conspiracy and they did not know it was even an island. It's one thing to argue something you know about, but to argue something when you don't know nearly enough about it to make that argument is idiotic.

    At the very least you knew enough to make your argument.

    The way I see it there is a certain amount of knowledge you must possess to make any sort of claim about history, and it changes in proportion to how big the claim is. ie. If I claimed that the USS Enterprise was an aircraft carrier the only info I would ever need to know is that it was indeed a carrier.

    But to make a brand new blanket statement over an entire conflict you had better know every damn nook and cranny of information about that conflict. If you only know maybe a tiny tiny tiny fraction of the information you need to know than what in the world gives you the right to argue about it and to actually claim someone else whom does in fact know a ton about it is completely wrong.

    I only ignore people or try to ignore them if they are making an idiotic argument that they know nothing about. Now I do draw a distinction between creating your own unique blanket statement and having one that is supported by real experts.

    For example, I can make the statement that in one way American internment of Japanese Americans on the west coast was justified and I do possess the necessary knowledge to make such a claim.

    In my opinion when we were arguing you knew more than enough to make your own argument, flakey here does not know nearly enough.
     
  12. soullust Registered Senior Member

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    1,380
    Lol, Yeah i read the thread, he seems to be set on his way, i was going to get involved but the three of you seem to have it all under control.

    I usually will never make a statement unless I can back it somewhere. It's a Golden rule of forums, unless you want to get chewed apart by the people who do have some means of Backing there claims, He is Probally new to on line forum debating.
     
  13. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    If I knew something about the Pacific War, yes junior, if you really knew something about the true history, not the PC corrected history that is so popular among the young today.

    The Pacific War then we might have a reasonable debate, the Fact is that;

    The Battle of Midway stopped the Japanese dead in their tracks, stopped their expansion, and allowed the U.S. to shift from defensive operations to offensive operation, if we had lost Midway, we would have been driven all the way back to the West Coast, and that would have added years to the war.

    The sea lanes to Australia would have ceased to exist, and Japan would have been able to win in New Guinea and invade Australia, and considering the fact that most of the Australian Military was fighting in Europe just how do you think that would have ended.

    Yes, learn something about the war, 55 years of study under my belt, how many for you Junior? 20 years in the Military, and 4 years in Hawaii, they have a wonderful Military Library at Scholfield Barracks with reams of information and documentation of the Pacific War, much of it still classified, but then I did have Crypto Clearance at that time, which allowed me access to many of the original document from first source.
     
  14. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

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    6,706
    Well its amazing because Im 17 and I know just as much about it. And I will have to call BS on the whole argument you stated that much of it is secret clearance. Especially considering I know the single biggest secret of the whole darned war.

    Tell me than, do you know how magic was used to fight the war?

    But Midway was not necessary to the sea lanes. It served no strategic necessity. The Japanese didn't even want it for a strategic goal.

    Buffalo, even the Japanese commanders say that Guadalcanal was the decisive battle of the Pacific war.

    Buffalo, Midway did not change a thing. It actually sped up the Japanese offensive.

    Midway did not start US Offensive operations Guadalcanal did. After Midway roosevelt still did not want to do an offensive war against Japan. It took all the combined influence of Admiral King and Supreme Commander Macarthur to persuade Roosevelt to have just one single offensive. When they won Guadalcanal Roosevelt gave them the go ahead for a major offensive campaign.

    Far more Japanese veterans and elite units were killed at Guadalcanal than at Midway. 71,000 Japanese high end soldiers, pilots, marines, and seamen were killed at Guadalcanal compared to only 2,000 seamen and pilots at Midway
     
  15. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    16,055
    The loss of 4 their fleet carriers wasn't a tipping point(they only had 6)? the fact that midway air fields were a part of are Island hopping campaign. The fact that the japanese plan was to lure out american carriers and sink them wasn't of strategic importance?
     
  16. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

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    6,706
    The Japanese werent trying to lure out there American carriers because the American carrier shouldnt HAVE EVEN BEEN THERE.

    They still built more carriers and even their auxilliary carriers were threatening.

    How was Midway part of the island campaign that HADNT EVEN BEEN CONCEPTUALIZED yet.

    pj, almost nobody understands the island hopping campaign. The island hopping campaign was a thrust from the navy northwest into Japan from east of Australia. The Macarthur campaign led by the army with just as much success made a thrust north from Australia into Japan's home islands. A two pronged strike. Guadalcanal was the very first major island in those campaigns and without Guadalcanal there literally would have been no island hopping campaign.

    Besides the fact where did you get the idea that Midway did anything for the island hopping campaign? Its too far away and it is at the completely wrong angle of attack, the island hopping campaign was to go at a north western attack. Midway was too far west.
     
  17. sweet Pentax Registered Senior Member

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    good to have you on board ...

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  18. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    Really? and?

    ^ Parshall and Tully, Shattered Sword, p. 53, derived from Japanese War History Series (Senshi Sōshō), Volume 43 ('Midowei Kaisen'), p. 118.


    But those 4 carriers and 300 aircraft weren't available to defend Guadalcanal, and the loss of pilot experience was never replaced.

    The Japanese managed to build another 10 carriers, but it never replaced it's pilot experience.

    Because it secured Hawaii as a forward supply base, and repair facility and the southern routes of supply to Australia to support the Island Hopping Campaign, and Naval Actions in the Central Pacific.

    Least of all you, with out Midway, there would not have been a Guadalcanal invasion, or a thrust north by Mac Arthur because we could not have send the supplies to Australia to support such a action, or use Hawaii to support the Central Pacific Actions of Nimitz and the fast carrier forces, because the Japanese would would have interdicted the supply routes to Australia, and neutralized Hawaii.

    The whole point of Midway from the Japanese view was to destroy what was left of the Pacific Fleet, taking out the Carriers first, securing air supremacy, to support a daylight naval action to destroy what was left of the fleet in a surface action.
     
  19. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    Oh my you know a secret, I knew that secret before your daddy was born, Captian Joseph Rochefort, and Station HYPO.

    Do you know at the time they were only reading about 10% of the JN25, and that Jasper Holmes, came up with the idea of having Midway sent a false message in the clear that it was having problems with it's desalination plant to confirm that AF was Midway, and it worked.

    This is so ridiculous as not to even warrant a response.

    And? maybe from their point of view it was, but then they lost the war,

    Again this is so ridiculous as not to warrant a serious response.

    With out a victory at Midway, we would not have been able to go over to Offensive Operations

    fedr808, 71,000 Japanese lost at the Canal? that is the total force number committed by the Japanese, not their loses,


    Japanese, losses for the Battle of Guadalcanal were 14800 killed in action, before they withdrew, they all weren't killed, or committed sepuku for the shame of being defeated, and failing the Emperor.
     
  20. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    16,931
    Ok fedr808, tell us why the Japanese were at Midway?

    Why did they go into a battle that according to you had not strategic or tactical advantage for them?
     
  21. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

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    6,706
    Look, Midway served no strategic importance at that time during the war. Tell me, why would the Japanese want to lure the American carriers to Midway rather than just send those six fleet carriers (two of the six had been used as a diversion at Midway) to the Coral sea along with all the cruisers and battleships that accompanied them and sunk the American carriers than? Why would they need Midway when they could do it at the Coral sea much more easily?

    Do you know exactly why they wanted Midway? They wanted it as a bartering chip for a peace treaty. Do you know why they wanted Guadalcanal? To cut off American resupply and cover an invasion of Australia potentially killing the supreme commander South Pacific in the process. Tell me, what's more important, a bartering chip? Or the key to winning the south Pacific theatre of the war?

    Look, Buffalo, the Japanese didn't need those carriers for Guadalcanal. Their strategy in the beginning phases of the war was to capture an island, build an airstrip, and use that airstrip to allow their bombers to hit the next island in the chain, than they invaded that island, set up an airstrip, used it to bomb the next island, invade, build airstrip, bomb next island in the chain, invade, etc. And as the Japanese built more airstrips they started strangling Australia, imagine each island as having a circle representing the range of the bombers, as each island was captured and built on the range would supplement that of the island to the north. So if they took Guadalcanal and the nearby islands than the fighter and bomber cover could have, hell, it would have strangled Australia. Japan didnt need aircraft carriers because Guadalcanal was well withing fighter and bomber range of the other Japanese airbases specifically those at Rabaul. Your right, they didn't have 300 aircraft to defend Guadalcanal, they had 800. And those weren't just carrier aircraft they were the heavier planes that could not be launched from carriers.

    Does anyone find it somewhat odd that throughout the war Japan only had 300 planes with their respective pilots that were actually good? It seems somewhat shortsighted dont you think that they only trained 300 planes worth of pilots to be good? Lets say each plane one average has 1 pilot and maybe a rear gunner. Thats 300 pilots. Do you honestly believe that the Japanese were that stupid and that idiotic to only have 300 good pilots trained to last them an entire war? That is utterly and completely idiotic. That is maybe about as many pilots as an infantry company. That isn't even a regiment in terms of numbers of pilots. That is tiny.

    Why would you train so few pilots to actually be good? The Japanese were some of the best carrier tacticians at the beginning of the war if not, the very best. Why would they only make 300 good pilots to last them an entire war?

    Buffalo, once more, I know the war like the back of my hand so don't assume I dont know what I am talking about.

    I will grant you that Midway is probably the turning point of the Pacific war.

    But it was without a doubt that Guadalcanal was the decisive victory that changed it all.

    Buffalo, the victory of Midway did not change a thing. It evened out the field as far as carrier combat but in order to actually defeat the Japanese you would have to capture the islands, carriers dont make a difference if there are two or three islands with many, many, many more aircraft that will sink them.


    Now Buffalo as per your earlier claim as to the strategic purpose of Midway let me say this.

    If the Japanese carriers wanted to annihalate the American fleet than why do it at Midway? Why not just send that fleet to the Coral sea and annihalate the American carriers?

    The Americans only had one fully operational carrier and one heavily damaged at the Coral sea along with a handful of destroyers and a couple of cruisers. If the Japanese really wanted to annihalate the Pacific fleet why did they not just send their six fleet carriers that participated in the strategy for Midway, along with two light carrier, 7 battleships, along with 56 heavy and light cruiser with destroyers?

    The trip to Midway was much longer than the trip to the Coral sea and that fleet that was going to attack Midway could easily have been diverted to the Coral Sea. If they had wanted to destroy the Pacific fleet than why the hell did they not deliver the finishing blow at the Coral Sea but rather set up a trap for the American Pacific fleet?

    Hell, they thought all that was left of the Pacific fleet was a couple of cruisers and destroyers, and two fleet carriers.

    Secondly, lets look at the actual strategy. If Yamamoto wanted a lure for the American fleet than why did he create a diversion? His fleet had 6 fleet carriers and he had sent two to make a diversion further to the north at the Aleutions. If Yamamoto wanted to lure the entire Pacific fleet than why in the world would he cut his fleet carrier force down by 33%? If you are making an ambush you hit them with everything you have got.

    Now lets look at the actual tactics used. First off, the Japanese had arranged their fleet into three squadrons. Nagumo at the front with his four carriers and with the other two, Yamamoto's and Kondos, towards the rear by several hundred miles. Now if you are making an ambush why would you do that? If they wanted a trap than why did they only guard their fleet carriers with two battleships and three cruisers rather than Yamamoto's and Kondo's squadrons had two light carriers, five battleships and numerous destroyers and cruisers to guard them? If Yamamoto was planning a trap he would have to know his carriers would have to be the bait so why not guard them? That is the most idiotic trap of all time.

    Now the fact is that Midway was a completely unimportant island. The fact is (and I have looked it up a lot) it didnt gain any level of importance until after Midway when the airstrip was used to bomb Wake island and to become a Submarine base for refueling. That is not something of significant importance.

    Now to say that it would have stopped Guadalcanal from happening if we lost is probably innaccurate. At first youd think it would because of the obvious reasons. But it wouldnt for the same reason tha the battle of Midway rather than stop the Japanese Offensive sped it up instead. The Japanese started feeling the pressure. You see, the Japanese never intended to invade the US or even to take Midway or go any farther east than Guam or Wake. their intention was to cripple our fleet for at least a year and in that year they would take as much territory as possible. They figured it would take at least a year for us to build a somewhat threatening naval force and in pretty much all respects they were right. At the end of that year they would try and sue for peace or at least a ceasefire. They knew over time the American industry could annihalate them (in that respect they were a lot smarter than Hitler). They wanted to take as much territory as they could before that would inevitably happen. They wanted Midway as a bartering chip for that peace treaty.

    But if we had lost Midway it would show us that Japan was a much larger threat and it would focus more resources from the European front to the Pacific eventually causing a massive increase in the US military presence in the Pacific and the urgency to mount a counter offensive.

    Now the Japanese were basically on the clock during their offensives. They had one year to grab everything they wanted before they were stopped and destroyed by the US. That means you go after high priorities, namely the south Pacific islands and China. The Pacific fleet was worthless compared to the Japanese fleet at the time. So they were completely right about the fact that our fleet could not face them conventionally for a year. Unbeknownst to them we cracked their code. We won Midway not out of superior naval skill or superior pilots or superior numbers, we won it because we got lucky and broke the code in the nick of time.

    The Japanese did not see the American fleet a threat until 1943. The Japanese would have liked to destroy our fleet and would have if it was at their conveniance. But their number one priority was two things, 1. taking as much territory as possible, 2. ensuring that a peace treaty would be possible. And Midway was supposed to accomplish #2, they wanted a bartering chip and were going to barter it along with possibly Wake island and Guam for peace.

    The Japanese actually gave the Pacific fleet a lower priority because if they damaged it too much it would enrage the US to continue the war.

    You see it's like in a chess game, in your next move you can either take the queen, or you can have a check mate. Now in a normal game someone may take the queen just to toy around. But to the Japanese in this analogy it would be like playing a chess game where their time limit was 5 minutes and the US's was one hour. They did not have time to waste and would have to go straight for the checkmate.


    The Japanese never intended an invasion of the US and ANYONE that tells you that is dead wrong.

    Besides the fact you never answered the question. "How was magic used to win the war?"
     
  22. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

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    It had strategic significance, but it was political strategy not military. They wanted Midway as a bartering chip for peace with the US or at least a ceasefire, it was to be bartered with Wake island and potentially Guam.

    Midway was NEVER used as a major role in the island hopping campaign. The only significance was as a submarine base and bombing Wake island both of which happened after the Battle of Midway. it was too far away to be an effective base for island hopping and it's facilities were insufficient.
     
  23. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

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    6,706
    It was more than 14,800.

    Though seriously, what was it like. Personally I have the same opinion you do, history of WW2 is usually BS that people came up with using 20-20 hindisight.

    Fact is of course I also have biased and slanted understanding of it. But that is why I have dedicated so much time to learning the truth and nothing but the truth.

    What was it like at HYPO? As much as I enjoy this debate, I really am excited to meet someone that was actually there.

    The way I look at WWII is something out of sadness, the whole war, the lives lost, the secret battles, most people dont know about them. And those that do wont be here much longer. The thing I am trying to do is to learn as much as I can about it, almost to keep it alive per say. It gives me nightmares to think that these memories and stories will die soon.

    The one thing about Midway I like is that they actually teach it. There are so many battles that are almost forgotten. Take Guadalcanal, at the time everyone had heard the story of the heroic marines holding the island like it was the alamo. And now many people dont even think "Guadalcanal" is a real word.

    So really, what was it like? What did you do there?
     

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