The Battle of Midway was the Turning Point of WWII

Discussion in 'History' started by Buffalo Roam, May 9, 2010.

  1. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

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    Yah your definition says a significant change. Tell me, other than the fact that we won, what made Midway such a significant change? Winning the battle isnt a significant change. Now the fact is maybe your right, without Midway there would be no guadalcanal, but without Guadalcanal we would not have won the war.
     
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  3. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    It stopped the advance of the Japanese, and absolutley ended their long string of victories.
     
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  5. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

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    It signalled the end of their winning spree. But it did not stop the Japanese advance in the least.

    Their goal never was to take Hawaii and they only went after Midway because it was conveniant.

    Buffalo, if the Japanese tried to take Hawaii we could have easily retaken Midway and cut off their fleets at Hawaii and destroyed them. They knew that very well, that is why they had no intention of taking Hawaii.

    Besides the fact, why the hell would they want Hawaii? Sure it may be worth a lot to the US, but its worthless to Japan. They never intended to invade the US, only a moron would believe that, what they wanted were the islands to the south of Japan all the way towards Australia, China, and the south western region.

    Buffalo, just look at their naval strategy, they had their carriers at the very front, their most valuable ships at the front. They had their ships that they normally use to guard the carriers at their rear. Why did they do that? Did they expect to get attacked from the rear?

    OH YEAH, They did! They thought our aircraft carriers were still in the region of the Coral sea, so they put the battleships and cruisers at the rear because they would keep the american carriers distracted so their carriers could launch aircraft. What they did not expect was that the american carriers would not only be approaching from the east, but far ahead of their estimates.

    But Midway did not stop the Japanese aggression and I can prove that easily. Namely, Guadalcanal proves it. After Midway we saw through a recon scout that the Japanese had landed on Guadalcanal and had begun building an airfield. The invasion of Guadalcanal was in order to prevent it from becoming operational.

    By the very fact that the Japanese were building an airfield it proves without a reasonable doubt that the Japanese were still advancing.
     
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  7. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    The Japanese navy wasn't in a position to attack the US fleet around Guadalcanal in a standup fight - that's why they were never able to just land a bunch of troops with troop ships and retake the island. They generally had to sneak in with fast destroyers at night to land troops, and had to be gone before daylight.
    Uhh, you mean the battle in which about 900 Japanese soldiers attacked 11,000 US Marines in fortified positions and got slaughtered with a 20:1 kill ratio?
    This is probably an accurate description of the state of the Marines forces right after the landing, but they weren't facing much serious opposition then. By the time the Japanese mounted a serious counterattack with combined air and sea elements (some time in September), the American soldiers on the island had been massively reinforced and resupplied.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2010
  8. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

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    Actually there were 11,000 marines on the island, do you think they were all in just one place?

    Actually the Japanese only started doing that later on after Henderson field became operational.
     
  9. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    If "in and around the airfield" counts as one place, then yes.
    The Island was captured on August 7, the airfield was up and running by August 20. There was no major fighting before the airfield was up and running, with the possible exception of the above-mentioned slaughter.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2010
  10. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

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    Well if by no major fighting you dont include the 31,000 Japanese corpses on the island than...wait....no its still wrong to make that assumption.

    But Nasor, it still doesnt matter how close the battle was, it is by the very definition and syntax of the word "turning point" the biggest turning point of the Pacific war.
     
  11. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    What the hell are you talking about? There was only one battle on the island before the airfield was up and running, and it only involved about 900 Japanese.
    I don't have any interest in getting into a semantic argument. I was simply backing up my assertion that there was never a serious possibility of the US losing the battle for Guadalcanal.
     
  12. fedr808 1100101 Valued Senior Member

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    31,000 Japanese died during the Guadalcanal campaign.

    I could debate the second point but it would involve me putting in a level of work that goes above my current attention since end of the year schoolwork is taking up most of that time and attention
     
  13. Shogun Bleed White and Blue! Valued Senior Member

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    After Pearl Harbor and Midway, the Japanese are still crushing East Asia, Southeast Asia, and former European colonies.
     
  14. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    Sorry, but that just isn't so, even in Indochina they at best could only achieve a temporary stalemate.

    They failed in their attempt to invade India, and from that point were being steadily driven back, on all fronts, Indochina, China, New Guinea, Central Pacific, they were forced out of the Aleutian Islands, the loss of Midway, six carrier, and 300+ airmen, and the Allies ability to maintain Hawaii as a central major base in the Pacific, for supply, repair, launching point for offensive operation, command and control, in the end crushed the Japanese ability to move raw material to Japan, and supplies out of Japan, to support their military in the field at the necessary levels to effectively compete with the allies.
     
  15. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    I said: "The Island was captured on August 7, the airfield was up and running by August 20. There was no major fighting before the airfield was up and running."
     
  16. Shogun Bleed White and Blue! Valued Senior Member

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    They crushed multiple European colonies. Their supply route was secure. See their victory at the Battle of Philippines, where the Americans were crushed.
     
  17. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    Are you talking about the Philippines Campaign (1941-1942), when Japan followed up the attack on Pearl Harbor Hawaii, or the The U.S. Liberation of the Philippines, Jan 9, 1945.

    The Japanese were prepared for action, battle harden troops, well supplied, and standing by to invade the Philippines.

    The Defenders of Philippines were not, the vast number of troops defending the Philippines were Fillipino, and not fully trained, On 31 July 1941 the Philippine Department had 22,532 troops assigned, approximately half of whom were Filipino, and not fully trained.

    As of 30 November 1941 the strength of US Army Troops in the Philippines, including Philippine units, was 31,095 consisting of 2,504 officers and 28,591 enlisted (16,643 Americans and 11,957 Philippine Scouts).

    http://www.history.army.mil/books/wwii/5-2/5-2_3.htm#p49

    And it still took the Japanese, 6 months to force a surrender of the defenders of the Philippines, who received no supplies, support, or reinforcements, and fought to the last possible day.

    Yes, the Japs really crushed the Americans, 6 months to crush a force with no supplies, no support, no reinforcements, no maneuver room, at the cost to the Japanese, of 9,000 killed, 500 missing, 13,200 wounded, 10,000 disease stricken.

    The Japanese had the,

    Third Fleet

    Was augmented by two destroyer squadrons and a cruiser division of the Second Fleet, aircraft carrier Ryujo from the 1st Air Fleet, the Japanese Force consisted of an aircraft carrier, five heavy cruisers, five light cruisers, 29 destroyers, three seaplane tenders, 17 minecraft, and four torpedo boats.

    Combined army and navy air strength to support the landings was 604 aircraft, The 11th Air Fleet, 21st and 23rd Air Flotillas, had a combined strength of 146 bombers, 123 fighters, 24 seaplanes, and 15 reconnaissance planes.

    The carrier Ryujo provided an additional 16 fighters and 18 torpedo planes, and the rest of the surface ships had 68 seaplanes for search and observation.

    So the Invasion force totaled 412 naval aircraft.

    5th Air Group,

    The Japanese Army 5th Air Group consisted of two fighter regiments, two light bomber regiments, and a heavy bomber regiment, 81 bombers, 72 fighters, and 39 observation planes.

    14th Army

    16th and 48th, to invade and conquer Luzon, and the 65th Brigade, The 14th Army also had the 4th and 7th Tank Regiments, five field artillery battalions, five anti-aircraft artillery battalions, four antitank companies, and a mortar battalion. An unusually strong group of combat engineer and bridging units.

    and yet with all this fire power it took the Imperial Japanese Military, 6 months to defeat the Defenders of the Philippines who had nothing except guts and fortitude.

    Yes such string of a crushing defeats, right up to Midway, and from then on it was all down hill for the Imperial Forces of the Emperor, starvation, disease, maiming and death, and crushing defeat.
     
  18. Shogun Bleed White and Blue! Valued Senior Member

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    The first battle where the allies got owned. The Japanese were better prepared for the environment then the Americans were and shinned on the battle field.
     
  19. nietzschefan Thread Killer Valued Senior Member

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    But that's why they won all battles against western allies - they were prepared - being the aggressor and the Allies weren't.

    Still say it was Pearl. If Japs took Pearl, they could have had a chance, otherwise they had no chance at all.
     
  20. Shogun Bleed White and Blue! Valued Senior Member

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    Not true, if they took over China, then they would have access to the resources, manpower and land they needed to build a huge armada.
     
  21. soullust Registered Senior Member

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    No body will ever take china, ever!!!!

    There is just too many of them, China was never an aggressive country, outside it's borders, But fuck around inside there borders and there going to fuck you up, i don't care how advanced you are.
     
  22. nietzschefan Thread Killer Valued Senior Member

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    Gotta agree. China used to throw human wave attacks(where every 3rd guy actually had a weapon) at the Japanese and win battles. Like I said in another thread, the way to defeat China is to get it to fight itself.
     
  23. Shogun Bleed White and Blue! Valued Senior Member

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    Japan should have used aggressive action on China later, and started with fueling the war between KMT and the Communists first.
     

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