The Autonomy of the mind/body ~ justification needed.

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience Archive' started by Quantum Quack, Jun 27, 2010.

  1. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    It is often stated that science currently believes very strongly that Psychic interconnectivity [enmeshment across distances] between minds is not possible nor even worthy of serious consideration.
    Yet it appears they fail to support the alternative being that every individual mind is totally autonomous and isolated psychically from each other.

    I would contend that if psychic connectivity was in deed not a reality we would cease to exist in an cohesive manner what so ever, Society would cease to function and the human race would consist of billions of alien races with out any ability to share common meaning or purpose.
    To me it is not good enough to discount the possibility of psychic interconnectivity with out rationally supporting the only alternative, that being autonomy of mind and body.
    I would like to invite discussion on this topic to discover how we seem to miss the fact that with out psychic connectivity we would not exist in any approximation of how we do exist as there would be no mechanism for the commonality of experience we do endure.

    "Quite often we neglect the commonality amongs Humans in favor of the differences and in doing so exagerate or amplify in our opinions and thoughts the isolation and chaos within our social systems"
    care to discuss?
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2010
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  3. Doreen Valued Senior Member

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    Some objections are going to be
    1) we evolved with eachother and have similar bodies - ways of interacting with the word - so this provide a base of commonality. We are to some degree islands, but very similar islands and with language and culture in common.
    2) we are islands or on/in islands, but we can send messages. So we can communicate, fallibly, over distance, one otherwise isolated virtual reality in a skull to another. These messages includes errors on both ends, but still enough information gets across to create the amount of cohesion we have.

    I think to bolster your case you will need to show why our commonalities and our over distance communication systems cannot account for the state of things - which is pretty messy also out there.

    I am rooting for you.
     
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  5. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    and my response would be we did not evolve together - how could we if we are autonomous?

    From infant to adult to death we would have no ability to have any certainty, any objective validation. We would have no common meaning nor language that was comprehensible. As we would be evolving independently through out our lives.
    Yet every island shares a common sea or ocean and planet, atmosphere, solar system, and universe [ metaphorically of course]

    One of the reasons humans do not get along so good at times is that we are far from perfect in our psychic communications skills. Mostly because science which people listen to with respect, rejects such a notion leading to further isolation IMO.

    thanks...and you may be surprised how many erudite persons share your sentiment.
     
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  7. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    Then that would imply (because we all share a common evolution) that our autonomy isn't as complete as you seem to be arguing it is (although without any "psychic" communication).
    You're using your conclusion as an a priori assumption to argue for the conclusion.

    Yet we all have a common brain structure - surely that would imply a commonality of thought processes/ emotions.

    Since we do have comprehensible language that would be another strike against whatever you mean by "autonomy". There's only certain ways that we can behave/ respond/ think due to our physical makeup.

    Evolutionary heritage. Physical structure. Brain structure.

    Yet there's no reliable evidence for this "psychic communication". And your contention that "listening with respect to scientists" is a reason why it's not "perfect" would seem to be false since science (and rationality vs. "psychic ability") is a relatively new thing in out history. Or are you now going to make the claim that if we go back, say 200-300 years, this "ability" was manifest in the general population? What we know of history would seem to be against that, also.
     
  8. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    All valid points ...however...
    a few thoughts occur,

    You have emphasised the human brain as somehow being similar amongst humans and I guess you would extend that to our DNA and a few other things.
    Imagine you are back 1 million years or so, and by some miracle we all had the same DNA.

    In those million years of evolution that have occurred since how would the DNA manage to remain similar and not "evolve" in distinctly different directions if the human body was physically and psychically autonomous? [assuming that in part evolution is a product of random influences]

    1. By what mechanism do you subscribe the ongoing evolution of the DNA with out a break down in autonomy? [ apart from "nuclear" procreation ]
    2. What would be the probabiliity do you think of the DNA remaining so similar after billions of evolution years of autonomy? [ apart from "nuclear" procreation]
    3. How do you account for the incredible DNA commonalities between human races that have never had physical contact with each other over those billions of years of evolution?
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2010
  9. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    What do you think would happen if there was reliable evidence of psychic connectivity especially as it is in the main suggested to be at a fundamental instinctive and subliminal, intuitive level?

    Would we as a race survive the realisation with out destroying that natural connection? [ as seen in those who have experienced it aka schizophrenia and other so called psychotic dysfunctions IMO]
    and besides just because there is no reliable evidence doesn't discount the possibility as in the main we simply don't know where to look for it due to our rigid preconceptions of autonomy. IMO
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2010
  10. Doreen Valued Senior Member

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    Autonomous in terms of separate minds. Together in terms of genetic material.

    I think you will find many here willing to cede 'certainty'.

    And the skeptics will say that yes a coconut from one island can reach another island via that common ocean, but it will be changed by its sea voyage and some coconuts released into even the same current will not reach that other island.

    I have often argued that here is an area where science and religion - at least the Abrahamic ones - work together. The community of science (believers) and the community of these religions have tended to attack anything in the parapsychological world. In different ways, yes, but this does little to ameliorate the effects. IOW it could lead to torture and death if one exhibited skills in these areas. And claims or openness around them could lead to shaming and mockery. And this all starts at an early age. It is further deeply imprinted in us, not unlike the taboos against incest.
     
  11. Pete It's not rocket surgery Registered Senior Member

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    You seem to be confusing "psychic connectivity" (telepathy) with "any connectivity" (communication).

    Isn't "psychic connectivity" a method of communication, a way of transferring perception and understanding from one mind to another?

    How is it functionally different from other methods of communication?
     
  12. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    As you probably know, I do not share same belief in the notion of mind / body duality as I consider both to be as one. As with science due to the lack of substantive evidence I there for lean to wards the "body as being in a symbiotic relationship with itself" That relationship by reflection is called "mind" where by the "mind" IS the actions of that relationship between the body in reflection upon itself and it's environment. [ another thread another day...]



    As mentioned in an earlier post this scenario of random evolution whilst autonomous may look good until you do the probability assessment over billions of years and realize that the fact that the human genome is still common through out in such significant ways that the notion of occasional "intercourse" with coconuts pales by comparison.

    Paranoia is an insidious thing.... no doubt about it...
    In the book I have been working on "The physics of God" I have attempted to thrash out this issue of how any dabbling in the psychic realm is tantamount to invading Gods' domain, as seen by religion irrational by science due to their instinctive fear of the same thing.
    IN the book I emphasis that when talking of God we are really talking about our instinctive reactions and behavior, and any ability to control these behaviors especially of others by a novice or ill-equiped person is damaging to everyone Else's instinctive comfort. Thus burn them at the stake or toss them in a padded cell what ever as the case may be, take your choice....either way the most often unwitting practitioner is either dead physically or dead societally.
    This is an interesting are of thought, you have brought up...thanks...
    and

    The act of prayer is after all what?
    ....and we all pray whether we call it by that name or not...
     
  13. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    see:
    do I need to go into it more do you think?


    popular ideas about it seem to lean toward what you have said however IMO it transcends the mere telepathy you describe. [ any "communications" that involve distance with out material and conventionally considered means ]

    no material support or physical mechanism as judged by science. [ although the phenonema of quantum entanglement is very suggestive of one such mechanism IMO.]
     
  14. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Pete maybe you would care to respond to post#5
     
  15. Pete It's not rocket surgery Registered Senior Member

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    Well, right now we're engaging in "enmeshment across distances between minds", wouldn't you agree?

    Why does "material support of physical mechanism" change the function of communication?
     
  16. Pete It's not rocket surgery Registered Senior Member

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    No miracle needed - just common ancestry.

    It's called sex.

    Sex breaks physical autonomy.
    It hasn't. Over billions of years of separation, archea DNA is different to bacterial DNA, for example. The remaining similarities remain because deviations from them were incompatible with life.
    Thousands of years, not billions. Not long enough for much differentiation.
     
  17. baftan ******* Valued Senior Member

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    What does this actually mean?

    How we go back in time and which miracle?
    Who is that "we" that share the "same" DNA?

    Human populations have never been remained so separated from one another for the time period that you are suggesting. For every "autonomous" body of yours are made of two other human beings. Every "autonomous" body is consist of two set of human DNA. The longest period two human population remained completely separated from one another does not exceed more than 100-thousand of years (the Southern part of Africa vs. Australian Aborigines). And when we say that 100-thousand, we assume that there has been no travellers who carried DNA from one geography to another. According to DNA samples, all humans around the world (with the exception of Southern part of Africa) has common ancestor from 60-70 thousands of years. When you combine all these DNA based evidences, it appears that human beings have not remained separated for long enough to allow any considerable DNA gene pool shift among their species.

    Sharing DNA from other members of the same species?

    "Billions" of years? Entire life has 3.5 billion year of history on this planet.

    "Human races that have never had physical contact with each other over those billions of years of evolution?" What does that mean? Are you aware of the time span you are talking about?
     
  18. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    you will need to be more specific...before I can respond properly.


    should read "material support OR physcial mechanism" your typo sorry.

    It doesn't change the function of communication...which is?
     
  19. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    possibly there is a need to consider a thought experiment [ gedanken] as a...uhm ....thought experiment....

    procreation alone would not be sufficient to maintain the degree of uniformity in the gene pool IMO
    If you do a proper probability assessment the chances of a common genome after a million years or so would be terribly remote. IMO.

    any probability experts out there that would like a shot at it go ahead and have some fun.
    However I do conceed you have a valid arguement to a point.

    keeping in mind that the brain/body is an incredibly complex organ...and yet we seem to have enourmous commonality in that medical scientists are able to detemine ab-"normal"-ities in the first place.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2010
  20. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    any ways I reckon there is plenty of things to have a great discussion about...have fun...till later
     
  21. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    uhm Baftan, a question on parting:
    where do you think that common DNA ancestor of 60-70thousand years ago came from presuming that the DNA was then as it is today?
    [leads to all sorts of ideas doesn't it?]
     
  22. Pete It's not rocket surgery Registered Senior Member

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    We're communicating. We're exchanging ideas. Our minds are enmeshed across distance.

    Right, material support or physical mechanisms do not change the function of communication. So, why do you maintain that psychic communication can explain something that non-psychic communication can't?
     
  23. baftan ******* Valued Senior Member

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    There are two types of thought experiments:

    1. Using real (physical) elements, objects, materials, actors, systems, etc. and trying to figure out why, how, what if questions. If we follow this path, we can not ignore already existing parameters such as how does DNA replicate? or how do major mutations occur for emergence of a new species? If we ignore these factors, our thought experiment can not be performed within this category (fact based thought experiment).

    2. Using anything comes to our imagination. We can imagine Gods, Aliens, humans living side by side with dinosaurs, anything you wish. This can not be called as thought experiment, this can be called as dreaming. And yes, anything goes, but don't expect anything about reality.

    Procreation works with double edged sword: Uniformity and diversity. If two members of a same species produce an offspring, the result will have similar elements from parents, but it will also be "different" from each one of them. Even if you clone the same member again and again, individual mutations and environmental changes etc. will result in some changes. Actually, procreation works as check and balance and uses two members of a species that prevents unrecognisable separation from the heritage line because of individual mutations. Again, even if two parents are used for replication, eventually one line of generation becomes a different species when long period of isolation is achieved.

    To make such a probability is next to impossible. Imagine this, could you calculate how humans was going to turn up in a million year time when you consider the condition of our ancestors a million year ago? Simply no. Because you can make probability assessment using the giving condition, data, etc. How would you know what the conditions will be in 500 thousand year? Don't forget, you must re-calculate the probability with this new condition in order to make another guess for the next 500 thousand year.

    No probability expert can do such a trick for the time span you are asking for. This falls into the second type of what you call "thought experiment", which is dreaming. And you don't need calculation for dreaming; just dream it, anything will fit...
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2010

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