The American

Are there not others in this Forum?
Are you the only one I'm posting for?
Some may be latecomers to the party and need to be brought up to speed.
What is obvious for you may not be for another.

 

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I see. Then ... ahem ... it's a plutocracy.

EDIT: In fact, I think that's what everyone's been saying for the last two pages.

 

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Like all great ideas [Democracy, Communism, Nazism, Christianity etc.], the US started with good intentions and soon deteriorated and mutated into what it is today.
The idea of the US and the reality of it rarely coincide.
Now it’s become a safe harbour for fat, hungry, economically ambitious, apathetic, ignorant, gullible, selfish, childish, oblivious, morons that medicate themselves with food, entertainment and material acquisitions and who tell themselves they are ‘moral’ and ‘good’ and ‘just’ and ‘right’ when all they are is stupid.
There are exceptions to the rule of course. Exceptions that are dwindling and disappearing.

 

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So, how would you answer one of those ancient guys if he told you that you're a hypocrite? I mean, the life you lead is wallowing in opulent luxury compared to the life of ancient Athens... and there you are amid all your finery, denouncing material pleasures as if you don't have any?

What would Diogenes say? (Other than "Go away.")

 

Your ability to misinterpret me is astounding.
Like all weak minds BigBlue relies on the arguments based on absolutes and extremes to make a point. For an inferior intellect there is only black or white and no colors in between.
For imbeciles there is only hedonism or asceticism with no balanced in between alternative and they depend on this method of extreme this-or-that thinking, evil versus good mentality to believe they are thinkers.
It can only be the result of obtuseness or inflated ego that rushes to find weakness before comprehension is established.
If you believe I’m against pleasure or all forms of luxury and leisure or that I should live a decrepit life to suit your notions of how you believe the Greeks lived then you are truly foolish.
If you haven’t realized that I’m talking about balance, the credo of Hellenic thought, and not extremism as was the case with Diogenes then you never will.

“Wallowing in opulent luxury”, moron?
What is your definition of ‘opulent luxury’ because I think we’re talking about two different things?
Is indoor plumbing ‘opulent luxury’, should I go piss and shit in the street to please you oh big blue empty head?
Should I turn off the lights and freeze to satisfy you? Is having electricity an ‘opulent luxury’ in a world where it’s only a basic commodity?
Have you misinterpreted technology for luxury?

The Greeks went to the baths and then to the palestra, they balanced their lives between pleasure and controlled suffering to create a heightened understanding of pleasure.
Have you read my ‘Asceticism’ thread?
Read it and get back to me.

 

I'm not the one who flies off the fucking handle when someone asks a question...

No, that's right, as soon as something is available you obviously both deserve and require it.

"Ooh, I'm such a big strong-spirited Hellenist. I renounce material pleasures. Wait! Don't take away my television!"

Boo hoo. Bye, Bob.

 

No BobHead I renounce the usage of material wealth to self-evaluate and to make it a life goal or a definition of happiness.
I only acquire things that I need to survive and I indulge in luxury only when I can afford it without using it to gain shallow self-worth through it.
Live lightly!!!! idiot, not 'Don't live at all'.
Who said I renounce material pleasures moron?
I just know them for what they are.
You’re creating straw-men again to make yourself feel better.
What is it about balance that you can’t comprehend? [‘Pan metron ariston’-ancient Greek proverb]
My criticism of western modern culture is that it is overly preoccupied with materialism, entertainment and acquisitions not that it is so at all.

No I buy things that I need not that I simply want.
Can you tell the difference between needing and wanting?
I need electricity to survive in this modern world, I don't need a Jacuzzi.
I need a coat to keep warm I don’t need a fur one.
I need clothes to wear I don’t need expensive name brands to show off with.
I need a car to get to work and earn a living because of the long distances modern life forces me to travel, I don’t need this car to be a statement of wealth or a symbol of my virility and manhood.
Objects are tools of self, in the west, and in the US especially, they’ve become representations of self.
Do you understand yet?
Nope I didn’t think so.

 

What is the meaning of 'pan metron ariston'?

 

This thread has definitely lost a civilized tenor.

 

Hi Wanderer, I have been reading a number of posts from you (sort of like the two above) that insinuate the USA is somehow forcing other cultures to adapt American values and or products. That is simply not true. You yourself have purchased a desktop PC and are using the internet. No one forced you to do this. However, the internet is an invention from the USA. No USA citizen was standing over your shoulder forcing you to “contaminate” yourself with some USA cultural influences (such as using the internet) you did so of your own accord.

Japan and Singapore have prospered under capitalism.

Have you been to Japan? If you have you will have noticed just how “Japanese” Japan is. While influenced by many products, ideas, movies, and inventions – Japan still remains uniquely Japanese while changing as all cultures do. Maybe your culture lacks the resolve of the Japanese to remain unique in a changing world? Regardless, it certainly doesn’t appear to be a problem with the Japanese.

I myself am American, I do agree that some American people are fat, are idiotic, are religiously zealous, overly patriotic, loud and many other negative qualities. I accept these as part of that society society. However, Americans are quite inventive, have created excellent research centers, offer many scholarships from family trusts, and many other good qualities.

The “rat-race” is something Americans seem to accept and take in stride, so why worry yourself over it? It isn’t your country so it doesn’t really concern you now does it? Countries were getting along quite fine for 1000’s of years before the “discovery” of the American market and should therefore do fine without trading with the US. If a country decides to trade – then it is people like you who open the door along with your wallet in accepting “Americanism” into your life. It certainly isn’t inevitable – think American fast food outlets and India in the 1980s.

Just by making your argument on the internet – a, at one time, uniquely American way to communicate - reminds my of the Iranian Mullahs condemning the “Great Satan” while knowing selling 60% of their Iranian oil to the “Great Satan”. Its rings as one-sided and quite hypocritical.

As I said, I do agree America is a competitive place where, if you’re not careful and associate with the wrong crowd, can appear quite superficial. I myself, at this point in my life, don’t much care for the American way of life. It worked well for me as an adolescent and allowed me to elevate myself from a kid in a trailer-trash drunk-welfare family to PhD research scientist. Thank god I was born poor in America and not many other countries. Nevertheless, I moved to Australia and now live here. I hope to move from here to Japan in a couple years and then maybe back here again. As for pitching-a-bitch about America, and I actually lived there so I think I have the right to, I can not fathom why a person who does not live there would waste their time complaining about the place. It’d be like me ranting about how Italian women smoke and eat slim-pills for lunch (which many many do) and conclude Italy sucks or bitch about how ungodly dirty Europe is (which it is – think cigarettes-butts and lack of sand on Greek Island Beaches) and therefore Europe and or Greece sucks.

I don’t live there so it’s really not my problem.

Anyway, I’d like to hear your thoughts on the notion that you yourself are contributing to the spread of Americanism by using the PC and the internet to bitch about the spread of Americanism.

 

I think I'm beggining to understand Wanderer..

Here is what I was thinking. When I read the beggining of this thread, I was also repulsive, I found it offencive, I bitched at him.

Now thinking more clearly.

If I let my self be judged by the generalities, that he speaks off, and strike at him "what am I defending?" that he is right, and that is why I feel offended!. That he has pin-pointed some of us here, and that you find this offensive.

Then the man is right, If you see that he is judging by what superficiality the US is pushed through the TV, Media, Movies, Pop-Culture A la Americana. And you can equate out of this picture of generalities he is painting, then you are not bob, and he is not at all talking about you. But! But! if you do take it persoanal, and you do feel offendend, ask your self why?. He's got you pinned, then he is right, and you feel offended, you feel that he has exposed you.

I'm not here defending Wanderer, hell you all should know that he does this very well all of his own, however I'm more in favor that you realize, that the attack is not a you personal, that if you do feel offended, then you my friend only make his assertions true, I always look for people who inspire me to think about things, Tiassa, Chriss, Raithere, all the oldies that have been here since I got here, I took a good vacation btw. But they know who they are, and I've had my arguments with them, and they have inspired me to think.

Just because someone is trying to make you think, look at your life, and is arrogant, for what he knows, and what he is trying to do here, that is to be uderstood. To be amongs his pears, in thought or intellect, this is why he came here, don't let your self be judged by generalizations, you are above that. And I know it!.

Godless.

 

I think this thread was launched without a civilized tenor.

I don't know if I would admit to that, Godless.

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I'm a gambler! it is always my nature to put my self at risk.

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I read somewere this: "if one is not honest to one self, don't expect you will be honest to every one else"

Godless.

 

Lucysnow

The broad definition may go like this in English: ‘All measure is exceptional’ or ‘All balance is excellent’.

Michael

Forcing by assimilating and destroying other cultures and spirits of being and replacing it with the capitalistic superficiality of rampant consumerism.
The indoctrination doesn’t happen through direct coercion, as past empires practiced power, but it has achieved a level of subtle sophistication as it was predicted by George Orwell. Many believe Orwell’s ‘1984’ was a critique on Communism but in fact it was a critique on western, or more specifically British, culture.
They of course don’t force me, and I only buy things I need or luxuries I can afford, but for the majority the consuming drive is nurtured and manipulated through a series of indoctrinating institutions that contaminate the human mind from an early age, and so are mistakenly assumed to be innate, and infuse the mind with value systems and measuring standards that motivate the individual towards a particular way of life and behaviour.
The mind can be manipulated and controlled through other ways than just by force.
That is why the US is a different kind of empire; it exhibits and utilizes power using more modern and subtle ways. It controls by indoctrination and by convincing the individual that it is really working for its own benefit and it uses instinctive drives to misdirect energies and loyalties. Its power is insidious.

Yes, by destroying or giving up their own cultural and historical background and imitating an American ideal.
Japan lost its culture after WW2, it is now a pale imitation of a western nation. In fact Japans defeat in the war was the final deathblow against its own spirit and civilization.
Have you seen ‘The Last Samurai’? Maybe you’ll understand it better now.
These nations you've mentioned have 'prospered', if your definition of prospering only includes monetary wealth, only by sacrificing their identity.
They have become the US’s bitches.
Does the US propose to ‘save’ Iraq by using the same ‘benevolent’ strategy of completely obliterating its cultural and historical past and placing in the gap Britney Spears, Michael Jackson, Hollywood fluff, pop-culture and uncontrolled consumerism?
‘Democratization’ and ‘open-markets’ is a code word denoting Americanization and the replacement of ideals and value systems.

Really?!! Have you talked to the average Japanese?
They die over there from overwork, they live in boxes which they pay with gold, they imitate western pop ideals and they suffer from stress and anxiety. Hey, but they have nice technological gadgets. Now that is progress, my friend.
You wanting to turn the world into the US through this method of indoctrination and leveling you call Globalization is not my idea of progress.
There are cultures, ancient cultures, that are far superior than your brand of shallow, mindless consuming emptiness you call American culture.

Most of US innovation, these days, rests on the practice of importing brain-power from other places.
What they refer there as the brain-drain.
The US pillages the wealth from other nations through its buying power, military strength and cultural steamrolling and then it pillages the nations human resources by using the very money they stole to entice them to become US servants.
It’s using instinctive human greed to dominate and helplessness to achieve an effect.

So you force a woman into the streets and then when she becomes a prostitute to survive you condemn her again on moral grounds.
Now who is hypocritical?
They call the US ‘great Satan’ because they feel threatened as a culture by US domination and strive to preserve their own ideals and values.
Whether I like or agree with their ideal is not the point, the point is they have a right and an obligation to follow their own path even if it is a destructive one.

The beaches facing south are sandy because they get the sands from Africa, the beaches facing north, east and west are rocky and quit clean and lovely.
Going to tourist areas is not a good idea. The loveliest beaches in Greece are not known to the average tourist. By the way Greece was given the prize for having the cleanest and best beaches in Europe. It’s because there isn’t much of a heavy industry there. But please if you don’t like them don’t go, I’ll go for you this summer.
Thanks for your concern, the fight against pollution due to apathy and consumerism is something I advocate in every country. Who said Greece or Europe does not suffer from Americanism?
I want all Europe to return to its roots, its pagan, Nordic and Hellenic roots.
If American 'culture' were contained within the North American geographical area, I wouldn’t be bothered, it’s because it is spreading that I’m fighting back.
I get the feeling you think I’m some sort of nationalist. This can only be because you have misunderstood everything I’ve said.

Godless

I’m always surprised to hear Americans who base their political affiliations on aesthetics and images tell me that they are not shallow.
Arnold Swatzenager getting elected in California is a good example of how Americans think, or don’t think. They base their opinion and choice on image, or fame and on how one looks or what persona he sells himself with. They rarely delve into the depths of opinions and values.
If they like what they see, they then justify it by using all sorts of excuses and superficial; labels.
Someone has to look presidential rather than think presidential. The current Democratic race is fraught with this mindset and watch how the ‘free media’ manipulates popular opinion and how this supposed ‘media’ is mostly an entertainment institution rather than the fourth pillar of power and control.
Watch some of the primetime ‘news-shows’ and see what I mean.

 

The "culture" in The Last Samurai (such as the refusal to use firearms) was an engineered culture sold by the Tokugawa Shogunate. It did not represent any kind of root nationalism, but rather an institutionalized set of morals that was only a few hundred years old, and furthermore specifically designed to place power in the hands of the wealthy few.

After all, why else would they declare firearms immoral? Because with a gun, any person can kill any other person. Removal of that relatively new technology placed the power back in the hands of the leisure class, the only people who could spare all of their time to train their more archaic fighting skills.

The high focus of the nobles on military skill in the only permitted forms of conflict was used to support the continuation of their feudal system. It would be unwise to pretend that this system had either great moral value or the precedence of long tradition; it had neither.

In fact, the US uses similar techniques in its foreign policy, i.e. arguing that the only weapons that could be effectively used by a small country against a large one (NBC weapons &c.) are IMMORAL for anyone to own, and that only the US (and other powerful nations, if necessary) can be ascribed the moral right to use them fairly. This principle of US foreign policy is considered hypocritical when it comes from the US... why should it be considered romantic when it comes from The Last Samurai?

 

Hey, anyone care to remind us what happened to the greek civilisation and culture?
Moreover, its funny to find someone making over the top attacks on stereotypes like Wanderer does, and then find people saying it makes them think. hell, i can get attacks on modern civilisation from just about anywhere, written in ways that are entertaining etc. Doesnt it get boring to find your attacking a generalisation? Havnt you got something better to do with your time?

 

Micheal why not read these articles. Let me know if you need more:

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:...n resistance to westernization&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

http://www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/h_es/h_es_malho_global.htm

http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/analysis/2003/0813newage.htm

Wanderer I find it baffling how most Americans are so blind to what is obvious to others around the world.

 

This is due to these factors:

1] Ego. No man likes being told he is inferior or that he has been duped and manipulated and so he resists any such theory.
Every man that has been taken for a fool or accused of stupidity will understand the egos inability to accept such sever judgment. It will explain away its error, excuse itself, validate its mistake and then it will blame others for its own thoughtlessness.

2] The control practiced by the American empire is one of subtle coercion that ultimately relies on the gullibility, ignorance and stupidity of the average mind.
Just as Christianity and most faiths rely upon human naiveté, prejudice thinking, the survival instincts, fear, human vanity and lack of mental sophistication, so does the modern nation state rely upon this.
The superficial thinking and stupidity of the average mind suits the powers that be just fine. In fact they are enhanced and promoted through the entertainment industry, the educational system and a general dislike for anything cerebral and thoughtful or anything distinct, discriminating and noble.

3] The usage of the natural human drive towards social groups or tribalism. The individual in unable to separate himself from the whole, usually a national identity, and so will defend and justify anything that is done in its name or attack anything that threatens and blemishes its myth.

4] The natural propensity of man to seek out the way of least resistance or the most comfortable road. This practice of offering comfort and blissful ignorance to those that don’t ask too many questions or don’t challenge the status quo is how the masses are kept ignorant and apathetic in front of entertainment screens and trivial pursuits of pleasure while their lives are taken away from them.

5] The indoctrination of the mind, from an early age, into a set of value systems and moral dogmas that enable a future manipulation into socially acceptable goals that are mistakenly assumed to be personal ones. This infestation of the mind, from external institutions, with motivations and standards that make all future mental manipulations more feasible is insidious and subtle.

This dummying-up of the masses is how power and the system maintains and propagates itself; where past power structures were maintained through force today more sophisticated methods have made the prisoners into prison guards and willing participants in their own enslavement.
That’s why today more information flow is allowed and more access to knowledge and free-speech is tolerated. We are, in fact, more free today than at any other historical time, yet we are less able to assimilate information and utilize it in free thought.
The mind has become dependant on external sources for its beliefs and ideals and is no longer able to think for itself. The indoctrinated mind is self-censoring, self-regulating, self-disciplining and self-controlling. What minds escape this web, are either discredited as eccentrics, weirdoes or are placed in prison as non-conforming mutations.
The multitude of information outlets of our time discredits all of them and the chaos of information overload makes the mind that is unable to filter out the crap from the diamonds a confused automaton that disregards all of it unless it is accepted and proposed by its peers or by institutions that have placed themselves as pinnacles of integrity and reliability.
That is why anything said in hereon this internet forum is not likely to have any effect on an indoctrinated mind. It will always perceive its well known information disseminators, T.V., Newspapers, Family, Radio, Institutions, pop-culture etc, as reliable and valid and all others as disseminators of propaganda and conspiracy theories.
The weak mind will always choose what is comfortable and intimate to it and will flee from the new or the disturbing.
In the US, this has reaches the height of sophistication. The average American is free to say and do as he pleases, he is also free to think as he likes but unfortunately he is unable to think for himself at all and so he will always say and act as he is expected to and as how everyone else around him does.

 

I want to get in on this game too. The best aspect of this thread is that anybody can make stupid, ill-conceived, sweeping generalizations about the most ethnicly diverse nation on the planet, and nobody can say anything in rebuttal. What a fantastic alternate universe we have here at our disposal.

So here's my turn at playing the game.

Canadian's are nothing but a bunch of beer-guzzling, hockey obsessed, American hating weirdos who listen to Loverboy and Anne Murray, and finish every sentence with "eh".

Now being a rational person, I know that my stereotype is probably not accurate, but that's irrelevant in this thread, so it's ok.

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Name one thing, just ONE, that is not a generalization.
Name one science that is not generalizing.
Name one concept that is not a generalization.
Name one ideology, one religion, one philosophy that isn’t generalizing.
Name ONE and I’ll concede the point.
Do you even know what the hell you are talking about?
Sorry if I use the word ’you’ in a non-specific manner.
When you say humanity are you generalizing?
When you use logic are you not generalizing?

When you use the word 'I' what do you mean?
Which part of the billions of cells that make up you are you referring to, which drive within you do you specifically call ‘I’?
When you say 'now' what specific time frame are you talking about?
Is not time infinitely dissectible?
Which general period of space/time are you taking about when you use the term ‘now’?

I think you should read my ‘Anthropos’ essay first and then speak.
By the way I love beer, I like hockey, I hate Americans and Ann Murray and Loverboy are ok.
So your Canadian generalization was pretty accurate. Now is not my American one also generally accurate?